Embracing the Opportunity to Make a Positive Impact, with Jon Denny

The real stories and hard lessons to help you level up your leadership and performance. Now your host, Ed Molitor.

Welcome back to another episode of the Athletics of Business podcast. And he works with a leading national recruitment firm, Buckman Enoch's Cost and Associates, which they were established in 1979. And I am extremely fired up to bring you today's special guest. Just a great person, a great man who is doing amazing things, John Denny. John has been a national executive sales and marketing recruiter for 21 and a half years, coming up here on 22 in the medical, diagnostic, pharmaceutical and biotech industries. And he works with a leading national recruitment firm, Buckman Enoch's Cost and Associates, which they were established in 1979. Now, as I mentioned, they specialize in medical device, medical diagnostics, pharmaceutical and biotech sales and marketing executive search. It's really cool stuff. And they partner in finding talent for leading healthcare companies.

Now listen to these amazing companies such as Acadia Pharmaceuticals, who we had Mark Heidersbach from Acadian. Mark is the senior national sales director. Mark was episode number 79 and it is phenomenal. Go check it out. Also, they partner with Legrand, Abbvie, Ambry genetics, Amgen, Boston Scientific, Cardinal Health, Dom Payne, Dante again, Jason Bay. Jason's been on the podcast twice here. Genentech and many others. Okay, the list goes on and on. And prior to joining BEC, John spent over two years in accounting and finance recruitment for a leading staffing firm and four years in college university recruitment. He truly has a fascinating story which we are going to jump into. In the last two decades, John has helped countless individuals in healthcare, sales, marketing and clinical roles find employment opportunities that have been life changing.

And he has several current clients helped early on in the careers, which is a direct reflection of the work he did with them and the initial stages of the relationship. As a matter of fact, one of the things we talk about in the podcast is how a dinner conversation at a clients awards event helped John understand the enormous impact he could have on the lives of the folks that he worked with on their next career choice and the folks that he placed. And that's where the whole mindset of moving from a transactional business to a transformational business really took place. John attributes his business acumen, strong work ethic, empathy, and connecting with individuals, which is so critical from his competitive collegiate athletic background where he played four years of college football at his alma mater, Ohio Northern University.

Some couple other things we're going to talk about inside of this podcast, why humility is such a critical skill. And he shares stories and experiences about the coaches that brought that to life in his world and lived in such a humble way. We'll also talk about what really motivates people when they are evaluating new career opportunities. I found this to be really fascinating because we read a bunch of stuff, right. Everyone's kind of writing the same things just in different words, but to hear it directly from people that are in the arena, that are in the fight, is pretty cool. John says one, something that hears often from leaders in the executive world is that past performance is a measure of future success. And he really does a great job of talking into that.

We also will talk about the different characteristics that top companies in the medical, diagnostic, pharmaceutical, and biotech industries. We get really specific what they are looking for when they are hiring frontline and second line leaders. And one other thing that we talk about that I think youll love is why mental toughness is so critical in growing through adversity. There it is again, not going through adversity, but growing through adversity. Why mental toughness is so critical in growing through adversity and how those lessons help you persevere. Enjoy my conversation here with John Denny. John, thank you so much for joining us today on the Athletics of Business podcast. What a great story about how we got connected. I am excited to have you here. We are going to have an amazing conversation.

Yes. Hey, Ed, thank you very much for having me on board. And, you know, this is awesome. It really unique to reach out to you to say, hey, I heard a great podcast with a guy that I know very well, Mark Hatterspach, that I'm working with and has known for, gosh, 1819 years. And I appreciate you saying, hey, let's do a podcast. I appreciate that, Jeff.

Well, we spent time, I mean, we sort of sent some notes back and forth after you commented on the podcast. That was episode 79 with Mark Hartisbach, and that was a great episode. And it's funny how it works out, right? It's great how one relationship with solid people, these more relationships with other solid people. And once we talked and once we connect, I'm like, I have to get John on. You're in a world that I love. I spent several years in the recruiting industry, in the recruiting space, and there's a lot of meaning behind why you do it, how you do it, and who you do it with. Share us with what you're doing now, John.

Yeah, so I've been with the firm, Buckman Enoch's cost and associates. Sometimes we'll say Bec search to make it easier. Gosh, I started in January 5 of 1999, believe it or not. So I've been here over 21 years. You know, I got bored. I was a guy that out of college I had this degree in art and I thought I was going to be a teacher at a coach. I realized real quickly that I don't know if teaching was what I wanted to do. I was probably because I observed a junior high and I thought, these kids are bouncing off the walls, how do I do this? But I ended up my path. I started in college recruiting and then I ended up wanting to get into sales. I actually got my resume to Buck Miniox at the time.

And Ted Koss talked to me as a recruiter and said, hey, I don't have anything in healthcare right now, but I have this spot in staffing. And I know I told you this part, so I'm actually a product of buckmino because I was placed by Bec back then with a national staffing company. Now it's brand stamp, but at the time was accountant, saying I cut my teeth in sales that way. And then probably two years later, I bumped into Ted at the grocery store and he said, hey, how are things going? I said, hey, they're going. He said, well, why don't you come work for us? And that's when it all started. So that started in January of 1999.

That's phenomenal. Tell us a little bit about your group and what you do and who you do it with.

Bec, we are founded way back. Our focus is really pharmaceutical, medical device, and also medical diagnostics. We deal with biotech. Another person you've had on Jason Bay, we've known Jason for many years. He works with one of my colleagues, Kirsten Siegel. And Jason's a phenomenal guy and I've had a chance to talk with him over the years as well. But we place high level talent, I mean, anywhere from frontline rep that's out there on the street working for a top pharmacy company or medical device company. And they're folks that are out there every day talking to the end users. So they're dealing with the physician. We work with companies like Acadia that I'm working with right now and an expansion for leadership. We were brought in really solely to help out with the leadership, the front line, as well as the second line.

So you have the first and second line that we deal with. We also work with some of the top medical device companies one of those is a company like Boston Scientific. I work with a company called Augmentix, which was acquired by Boston Scientific back in 2018 2019 era. And we really are brought in. We're true headhunters. We do direct recruitment. We find talent that typically these folks that are out there, we're calling up out of the blue, they're not actively looking. A lot of them are passively looking. That's what we say. And we say, hey, we've got a great opportunity with Acadia, for example. Have you heard of them? No. Let me hear more and really pitch that and really have the ability to change people's lives.

And that's one of the things I think early when I was a young recruiter, I was chasing the money, making deals. You make placements, you get paid fees. But as I've grown in this, I think one of the exciting things that has become a career is that the money is going to follow. It's really helping people. It's changing lives. I think in part of that, the question that I sent back, I realized that probably in 2017 when I was invited out to a national sales meeting for a leading diagnostic company, actually up the road from in Madison, exact sciences. And we did a lot of leadership and also replacement in 2013 through 2015 when they launched their product, got invited out. I was sitting at a table. I'm in this national meeting. I'll tell you what, it was cool.

I got handshakes and hugs, high fives. I thought I had made it. I thought, this is awesome. But what really was the greatest thing that happened that day, a young lady that I placed twice in her career, I placed her in the industry of medical sales. And then I got a chance to place her as a leader with exact. She looked across the table, she got teary eyed, and she said, john, I just realized that you changed my life. And I got the goosebumps and I got the.

Yeah, that's unbelievable. I mean, that's. That's so moving. And that had to bring you back. And we haven't referenced this yet, but you played, you know, great football player. You played at Ohio Northern. But that feeling right there had to put you in her shoes on the other side of the table. When you reflect back on the impact something we've talked about coaches have had in your life.

Yes, absolutely. You know, it really, the parallel of that is right there. I mean, for me, growing up, I was a kid out of Toledo. You know, my parents divorced when I was young. I was six years old. Didn't know my dad until later in life, I think I mentioned I could be on some reality show. But, you know, specifically, you said, jerry.

Springer, we'll find you a better one.

Yeah, we'll find you a better one.

You're worth way more than Jerry's got, dog.

Exactly. Well, you know, but back then I thought, you know, as a kid, you know, oh, woe is me. And, you know, you didn't have any viewpoint other than your own viewpoint at that time going through something like that. And my mother worked hard. She was a teacher educator 30 years as well in the Pluto public school system. You know, my grandmother helped raise us and she was a german, you know, lady. She was second generation German. And, you know, for years. This is a funny one, Ed. She would call me Duma Razl, and I thought it was terms of endearment. And I finally said, graham, what does that mean? It's dumb donkey now it was the other word. But anyway, yeah, so she was a great lady. And I learned a lot from my grandmother as well.

But coaches in high school, dad wasn't around. You know, I really got into sports. I got into football because of the physicality of it. It gave me an outlet. It gave me, you know, something to be a part of, something to, you know, kind of build that. Plus the coaches, these were great guys. Doug Newark, who played, I didn't know he played in the semi pros or pro football to later in life, Ed, I had no idea he played for the Detroit Wheels. No idea. Dean Smilo, we call him Dean Smilo because he was the dean. John Smilo is his real name. And he was a military guy, laid though, as well, and semi pros. And I'll tell you what, and this is back in probably the era of you and your dad, these coaches, you respected them.

If you didn't respect them, you were running and other things, you know, it.

Was tough that you couldn't do today.

But they do, you know, they loved you and they, to this day, you know, I still would call any of those guys coach. You know, you're not calling them by their first name. They're the coach. Hey, coach. So that's important.

And then you hear these kids today, they'll call their coaches by their last name.

Yeah.

I mean, aren't you missing something before? Aren't you missing like, you know, coach so and so?

Yeah, it's changed so much in, you know, my son, I think I've taught him. And you're going to teach your kids your daughter and your son, this, I mean, you teach them about the respect and, you know, in working order and all the values of sports. You know, listening to your podcast that your dad did, you know, that was phenomenal to hear about the catholic league. And, you know, I grew up in the south side of Toledo. A little different than Chicago south probably. But, you know, South Toledo was really, you know, is probably middle class. You know, you worked hard. You worked, you know, from 13 on. I mean, I washed dishes when I was 13 under the table. You know, you're not allowed to do that nowadays.

But, you know, I worked all my life, and I worked in the steel mill during college. And I mentioned this story, you know, I didn't know what a steel mill was, but walked in and you really learned that. They called me college boy. Hey, college kid, come over here. You know, I painted railings. I dealt with shoveling the scale that fell off the billets, the caster, the heat would come down. And I could never gain any weight during the summers for football because I would sweat it all out. And I worked swing shift. That's what we did. But that really, I think getting into that part of my life, I think that work ethic drive, there was no choice. You had to work to help with expending a single mom, three kids. You know, that's how I grew up.

Let's go back to your coaches and even the woman sitting at the table, though, because one of the things I asked you, what's the most critical skill that people need to be successful, right? And you mentioned humility, and you mentioned your coach.

You didn't even know.

You didn't even know that they played semi pro. And you see that show up a lot of times with the most successful coaches, the most successful leaders. They don't feel the need to talk about themselves, right? Because they had that sense of self confidence and they're very humble. Can you talk into that a little bit?

Yeah. I think reflecting back in these thought provoking questions that you have, the sense of humility is a critical skill. I think one of the things I learned very early on is I thought I was the big shot. I was the kid in high school at the time. I think back then, six, 3200 pounds or whatever I was, that was a big kid for in the late eighties. And I excel, did very well. I was a co captain. I remember my colleague, my co captain, Tony Corey, he ended up playing baseball for Ohio State. And to this day, he's a very successful medical sales rep for one of the top orthopedic instrument companies out there. And so these are people that you surround yourself with. But the humility part came in. More than likely it was when I went to college.

I got recruited by a couple different division three, division two. I knew that if I was going to go d one, I probably wouldn't have to walk on like the University of Toledo or Bowling green. I wanted to play, and I thought, hey, the best way to play is get a chance to play more. Would go to a d three pro and looked at a bunch. But I got recruited by Ohio Northern University, and Tom Kaskowski was my head coach. Dwight Montgomery, actually, I don't have him on that. I didn't write that down. But Dwight, who's now a very successful businessman here in Columbus, came to my high school, you know, came to my school. I think I showed up and talked to me. I had an admissions counselor, too, that made a big impact on my life, and I'll tell you about that.

I didn't write that in, but it was Mayor Darren Scott. Darren Scott was the admissions counselor from Ohio Northern. He was a two or three time all american wrestler. I was so impacted by him, I thought, I'm going to check this school out. Got recruited, did the overnight visit, and Tom Kaskowski was definitely an influence. Coach Mike Meyer was an influence. He came from a long family of coaches in Greencastle, Indiana. I don't know if you know that the Meyer family, DePaul, I think, is where his dad coached. So went and really immediately knew that this is the place I want to go to school. Got on board Tom Kaskowski, actually, and I think I mentioned this, created the pistol offense. It was called different things, but he's known for that, the pistol one offense. And anyway, the humility came.

I got to camp and realized, you know, here I am, co captain, big deal in Toledo. You get to college and you know this, and everybody is bigger, faster, stronger. And I was behind a kid named Scott Hardings. Scott was a defensive end. I got recruited to be a defensive end. I thought, that's what I'm going to play at the defensive end. I was a garden defensive end in high school. He was six five. He came from St. Henry, and St. Henry, they grown big. And that's where, if you think Bobby Hoyne, Jim Lachey, but also his brother Jeff Hardings played in the pros. Jeff Hardings was first round draft pick for the NFL back in 96, and I think he weighed 200, 8290, something like that.

So anyway, I got really that sense of humility, which I think is a critical skill, that you have to be humble. I think you have to be humble in your career, in your family. I think it's an important trait to have. I got knocked down a peg. I knew that I was frustrated and whatever I tried to do, I couldn't gain the weight. I was fast. I worked out all the time in the weight room and I thought, I'm just going to outwork everybody. I did do that to an extent. But then one of the things that happened, I had an emotional with one of my coaches, coach Ponks, Rick Ponks, who's been a high school coach in the Chicagoland market, and he said, john, he said, hey, you'd better suited, maybe in a different role. And I think that's part of life, too.

You go into life, whether it's career, family, and you have a focus of what you think you're meant to do. And then it happened. Changes happen, you know, adversity. And that's kind of what we're going through right now with, you know, the pandemic. Obviously, we're going through that and how you pivot to that, how you react. And so during that time, you know, they said, hey, you know, Denny, we want you to move you over to offense and be a flanker. And I said, a flanker? What the heck's a flanker? Yeah. And, you know, we had no idea what a flanker was. I didn't even know how to position my feet or even stand, but it was a wide receiver at the time in our offense. Really what it was is like a tight end.

I was put in not to catch Pence, which I thought I was going to do, but to block and basically on sweeps, crack back on the linebacker. And I'll tell you what, it was one of the fun, you know, most fun positions that I've ever did in a role. You know, at the time, these linebackers are coming out, you know the place they're following the play. They don't sound, you crack down and you just knock them on their butt. And it was one of the most fun positions. And I thought, man, why did I play this all my life?

So anyway, well, you just said something and I was just ready to ask you about being invaluable without being most valuable and how you learned that lesson and that drove your humility.

But I want to.

Ask you something different. We'll get back to that. Something about the flanker. And you identified your role and you fell in love with your role, because you and I both know that how much a person embraces their role and executes on their role is the true value they bring to an organization, a team, what have you.

Right.

So as you work through these roles that you present to people. Right.

Absolutely.

How do you talk through those things and show them the value? And not only with your candidates.

Okay.

But also the people inside your organization.

Absolutely. Well, I think you know the value as you're talking to an individual the first time that you've met, you know, and they don't know who you are. They might have heard of your firm, your brand, but you're trying to get to know these individuals and really talk to them about their career. What are you looking for? Sometimes in the early days of my career, I thought it was always, they want to make a move for money. Money is a motivator for a lot of folks in sales. I mean, let's face it, if you're in sales, you want to make a good living. Early on in my career, I thought, oh, if you've got $10,000 more for a base salary or total comp, they're going to move. That's not what really motivates people. I learned, really, there's a lot of factors.

They want to be a part of a team, of a culture. It could be a culture of winning, for example, in sports, but a great sales culture, a great environment where they really give back to their employees. It's not always about the money. It's about the intangibles. It could be an equity stake within the organization that you really are a part of that company and have the ability to really own it. And that's something that you see a lot in the companies that we work with. A lot of them are publicly traded, and that's part of the process.

How significant do you find it is for people as they look at new roles, for them to really see the value that they can add in that role and to know that they're going to be an important person, an important piece of the puzzle to where they are looking to move to?

Yeah, well, good. A good example. I mean, this project we're working on right now with Mark Hauters box team, you know, they're looking for leaders. They're looking for leaders, not managers, if that makes any sense. And they want folks that have, it's not necessarily the disease state, you know, therapeutic. It's more about, are they, do they have an executive presence? Can they lead others? Servant leadership, like, you know, we talk about. That's really what Mark's looking for, strategic agility. He mentioned that a couple of times. It's great. And I think it's, I think of the v cuts in basketball. I mean, strategic agility, but he's been very good to work with. And obviously, I've had long history with Mark Hattersbach, with Acadia. But as you talk to individuals, they're looking for that. If they're in a company, they're not looking their heads down.

They're doing their job. You let them know about an opportunity. What I've found, it's not just the part, it's the ability. They can come over and build something, create something, lead others. That's what these folks are looking for right now.

And that's huge because you and I have both had, and we both understand the significant impact a coach can have on a person's life. And in the athletic world, but also in the business world, how important is it for a coach to have the ability to see in others what they might not seen themselves? And how have you seen that show up in some of the amazing organizations you've placed folks at?

Yeah. So seeing others. Yeah. The coaching them.

In other words, you and I both know, like, we've had the coach like Dang and Denny, you know, I think you're better than you think you are. You know, stuff like that. Or I know you have the ability to do this, you know, run the 10,000 sprint or whatever it is. But in other words, they might believe in you more than you believe in yourself. They might see something that you don't see in yourself.

Oh, absolutely. We talked about that a little bit. I think when you're young and playing sports, the coaches, they obviously see something in each kid, and you have probably good examples throughout your career that you coach kids, saw something in them. Same thing in business. When you look at a leader that's hiring their team, their sales reps out there in the field, it's just like a sport. It's just like when you're picking your point guard or your forwards or even football, who's going to be on the line? Who are the backs, who's the receivers? That's what these companies are looking for. And a lot of times they'll say, I'm looking to hire the best athlete. It's amazing how many times I've heard that over the years. What they mean by that.

They want somebody that has the ability to be able to multitask, be someone that might come into an organization where they've had a track record of success. It's not. You hear this a lot, too. Past performance is a measure of future success. I hear a lot by leaders. Past performance is a measure of future success. There is a lot to that if you.

What do you mean by. Can you walk us through that a little bit?

Yeah. So if you have an individual, whether it's an athlete or even a, you know, a salesperson, for what I deal with, you know, a lot of sales folks, if they have been successful in their career, if they have, you know, led top performance with the organization, you've hit their quota. They've hit presence clubs. They've been rookie of the year. There's a highly likelihood that they're going to do that again. They're not going to settle. Because as an athlete, you have this competitive spirit that you constantly want to better yourself. And I think you and I, and we talked about how do you better yourself? Everybody wants to get better in some fashion of their life. I think right now with COVID it's allowed. COVID-19 step back, be with family, have the ability to.

I've had a chance to during COVID We're back in the office now, but fortunately here in Ohio, which is great, but during March and April, I had a chance to actually have lunch with my son, who's an 18 year old going off to college, and we talked about life. Otherwise I wouldn't see him. He's working now and that type of thing. Anyway, past performance is a measure of future success. Getting back to that, these clients that I work with, they want to hire the best talent. They want to hire someone that can move the needle, someone that has the ability to really market a product, a therapy or service or device that really can impact lives in healthcare sales. Recruiting is what we do. We are placing reps that are on the front line. These are first line reps or first line leaders.

We deal with second line leaders as well. But they are getting the product in front of the customers, which are the physicians, the surgeons, the pathology labs, whatever it may be. And the products that these folks sell are making a difference. In Acadia's case, they are filing a brand new product for dementia, hallucinations and delusion. There's nothing on the market for it yet. It's a unmet need. So working with clients like Acadia, working with clients that I'm working with another company right now that I'm just getting on board with in robotics and device, in prostate cancer, in BPH, it's just unique.

I mean, these are unique companies that need the top talent that can go out there and influence, but have the, you know, the smart, have the, you know, the track record that if you hire them, they're going to be successful and they're going to come over to our company and they're going to be a top performer. They're going to be the rookie of the year, they're going to be the.

Peak club winners, and they're going to be consistent.

And they're going to be consistent. Just like when you think of practicing in sports, basketball, football. I remember the days down in the dew grass in the morning at college. It's August and it's 95 degrees in Ada, Ohio. There's nothing. Ada is in the middle of the cornfields. There's nothing there except for. That's where they would make the Wilson football. That's where the Wilson ball factory is.

Believe it or not.

And, you know, between Finley and lime, Ohio. So if you want to have fun, you got to go to those two places because there's nothing to do with Ada. Back when I was. Oh, yeah, they make. And you. Yeah, and they. Today, I mean, there's still ladies that sit there and make football. They sew them together by hand. That's insane. I think it's automated. I, you know, maybe the punching of the leather, but it is the neatest thing. So if you ever get a chance, take a tour of.

Well, I need to visit. I want to go back to something you said. Past performance is a measure of future success. And all the way to the start on podcast number one. It was actually podcast number two. My first guest, though, with Porter Moser, was right after they won the or went to the final four, and we talked about recruiting winners.

Right.

And we, you know, go and get people from winning programs that know how to win. And one of the things I. I really looked at when I was coaching college basketball and when I was in your industry as well, in the recruiting industry, and I talk about this a lot. We always want to know if we can win with somebody. Like, are they a winner? Can I win with them? But one of the things people seem to overlook about winners is that you can also lose with them. Like I used to. Like, I used to want to know about someone's character and, okay, will it be possible that he and I struggle together, that we're going to go through a grind in the season and can we lose together? How much does that show up when you're working with candidates?

You know, and I think about it in my career. You know, you have to have that mental toughness. You know, in sales in general, there are a lot of wins and there's a lot of losses in sales. When these folks go out there, if they're selling a product in the market, you know, they usually have competitors. And a lot of the companies we place individuals with, they'll have two to three competitors out there that they've got to go out there and compete with. You'll find in healthcare there are a lot of, you know, I think we still think we're athletes, but ex athletes, right.

Corporate athletes now, we can still hang.

Yeah, but I'm not gonna go play football tomorrow. But I, you know, if I'm gonna, you know, run or bike or whatever, I'll do. But there's that athletic component where you have to have mental toughness. You're going to, you know, you're going to win some accounts, you're going to lose some accounts. And what do you learn from your losses? You think about sports. You learn. Maybe next time, if I'm going to call on decision maker, here's what I've got to do. I've got to. Maybe my approach is wrong. I'm a little bit aggressive. Maybe I got to pull back. Maybe the person at the front desk get to know them a little bit more. Know, hey, I recognize that they're wearing cubs, a golf shirt. Well, wait a minute. You know, let's bless you for saying.

The Cubs, too, by the way, not saying the white socks.

Yeah, I thought, well, I was going to say that. I thought your Cubs will go that way. I grew up, you know, in Toledo. You went to Detroit Sparky Anderson days.

Yes.

You went to. I was a Tigers fan, so. And I used to tell people I was a Lions fan back then. They're like, oh, my gosh. But you can. You can say that now. But, yeah, I'm not a Browns fan and not really a bangles fan. So anyway, but going back, I think the perseverance of an athlete, you see that a lot in sales, especially in healthcare, you have to have that grit, that grind. In our space as recruiters, we're commission oriented. We don't get paid typically contingency recruitment. You don't get paid from place and it's tough to take. You can do your job right. We're dealing with human beings and you dealt with placement, staffing. You never know what's going to happen.

There could be an individual say they're in all the way through and at the end they say, you know what, I've decided not to take the position. Or, hey, you know what? Talk to my spouse. They've decided that maybe this isn't a good fit for me. So one of the things I do in that same breath, if I have a candidate I'm working with, I'll ask them, hey, have you talked to your family about it? What have you thought about making this move? How will it impact your family? Have you thought about the travel? So there's a lot of that counseling as a recruiter that comes in. If you're a good recruiter, you really got to know your client and you got to know your candidate very well. And really it's a matchmaking thing. And we talked about blind dates.

I mean, that's really what we do. We do a lot of now with virtual, it's a lot different because it's not blind. But back in old school recruiting, you really would call somebody up, we didn't have LinkedIn, we didn't have the list and so forth. You really would identify the talent. You'd find out, okay, who are the top players within those sales organizations that we could reach out to and find. And there's a lot of networking in what we do as well. You think about it and you're probably the same. And I've told my son, going up to college, surround yourself with successful people and surround yourself with very good friends. You have to have a core group of individuals that you can lean on and they'll lean on you. That's important in recruiting them.

Networking for me is probably, I would say probably at least 50% of the people I place is through networking. It's not just posting an ad. I mean, we are different in that sense. We're traditional in a way that we will reach out as direct recruiters. We work with companies from some of the top medical device companies like I mentioned, to the top pharma, and then we work with companies that nobody's ever heard of. There's a company out there that deals with epilepsy and we helped launch their first salesforce and, you know, I've watched their stock grow and it's been a lot of fun.

It's gotta be pretty rewarding too, I imagine.

Yeah. And I just had, I saw that one of the individuals I work with, a leader, just got a spot promoted up to a second line leader. And I just, you know, I pinged him on LinkedIn, I said, hey, jordan, congrats, you know, success getting promoted. And he wrote back something and I saw it. I didn't read it through because I wanted to hop on this cast with you. But he said, you made an impact with my team. That's it.

Yeah, that's it right there, isn't it?

That is it.

That is it right there, you know, and so networking is a big piece of the puzzle for you. 50% of your placements are through networking, right? You answer the phone, someone's going to tell you about someone they're going to refer someone to. What are the things that you want to hear? What are the things that you're looking.

To hear about somebody, you know, if somebody's referring, especially a leader, for example, in what I'm doing right now, you know, with a project that I have, I want to know, how do you know them? Did you work with them before? What can you say about their leadership? What can you say about their track record? How do you know them? Number one, that's usually the first thing that comes out of my mouth. Secondly, I will say, hey, is this somebody you could put me in contact with? Could you reach out to them and let them know that I'm looking to talk with them? That normally gets the introduction, gets the start. I'll tell you why I was impressed with what you do at is that coming from being a coach, you're still coaching. So your dad did it for 42 years, you're still coaching.

Even though you may not be on the floor, that's what you're doing. And I think athletics really, I look at it. One of the things I do a lot with prospective candidates, if I see that they've played a sport, I instantly have a connection with them. If it's tennis or something totally out of what I did, I can relate. And I think relating with others is really important for my business throughout the years. It's made an impact. What drew me to come to Buckman Enoch's coss and associates, Ted Koss is a partner here. Steve Enochs is really the founder. Both of these gentlemen are like myself. They came from blue collar mentality. Ted grew up in a valley, the steel power plant. He worked at a power plant in the summer in the coal for AP. And we have stories very similar.

Steve worked in a steel mill indiana, is where he grew up. Went to Indiana U. He was a Bobby Knight fan all the way through, man. And these gentlemen I met and I knew instantly that I want to be a part of this. They've made an impact, I think, as mentors, they've been mentors for me as well. I've seen the success that both of them have had. Steve, for sure. I mean, he started the business back then with nothing and built the business up. It's an environment that I think I've excelled in because these folks, we relate, and I think we're athletes in what we do and athletes in the business sense.

We strive to do better, we strive to constantly improve, whether it's technology that we can use in recruiting, whether it's the ability to take on projects where we can really shore our style and influence on bringing in top talent. And I would treat it like in sports when you're recruiting a top player, we're doing the same thing. We're trying to identify those best players to bring into a business, you know, to work for somebody like a Jason Bay or a Mark Heidersbach. We're looking for that talent, that they can make a difference in their culture and it could be, you know, as little as a culture thing. They really want that background because they don't have somebody with that skillset. They want to bring them onto their team.

And a lot of coaches, probably, and even leaders in healthcare, sales leaders, they want to hire diversity in their team. And that is more than it's skills. It's lots of different things. It's the ability to have people that are different than them that can bring some influence in a lot of teams. Now that you see in healthcare, they're looking for that. They don't want to have everybody cut out of the same cloth. They don't want everybody from the same company that comes over to their patient. They want to have different things involved. I think what we're successful to do with our firm, with Bec or Buckman, Enoch, Coss and associates, we have a diversity in terms of how we recruit. We're not just pharmaceutical recruiters, we're not just medical device recruiters. We deal with all of that.

So we have, I think, a little bit of a broader sense of talking to different folks in different industries, you know, that in healthcare, that really make us diverse in the type of individuals we can bring on board for these organizations.

And you just said something as we talk about diversity. And I was going to ask you, I was waiting to ask, how do you inside of your organization? And this is what championship teams do. This is what successful organizations do. How do you make each other better?

Right?

Because like you said, you all do things in a different way, in different spaces, so to speak. How do you complement each other and make each other better?

Yeah. Well, I think in our team here, we collaborate. It's funny, we all have an open door. There are many that I'll go to Ted with an open door. I'll even talk to Greg Horak, who's on the team here, is managing the associate recruiters. It's really neat because even though you've been doing this for 21 and a half years, like myself, I got that sense of humility. We'll go back to humility, or I think you talk about vulnerability with where your viewpoints. And I'm not the guy that knows everything. I'm going to go and get direction and get help. Hey, I've got this situation happen with a candidate. What do you think? What would you do in this situation? So we're very collaborative in that sense. And I think diversity, we do bring in the ability to bring different candidates.

I think one of the things, if you talk to Mark or Jason or any of the folks that I've worked with, I'm able to bring them candidates that they might not even think about and actually say, hey, think about this. Here's why you want to talk to this individual. Yeah, I know on paper this is what the resume looks like, but here's what I found out about them. And a lot of times, Ed, it goes back to the stories of maybe growing up or what did they persevere through, or what adversities did they have in their life that have made them who they are? So we as recruiters, and you probably did this in your world, too, you really get to know the stories of these individuals.

And I think if you're dealing with a candidate that it's one of the biggest steps in their life. Think about this. And I tell people this is an emotional thing. When you change jobs, you know, when you go on and make a move from a very stable environment, could be a top medical company and you make a move to a company, it's an emotional thing that when you're making that change, it's like getting married or having a kid. It's a pretty big deal. Right? There's a lot of an emotional thing that it's not just making a move. They have to think about that, making that move. Why do they want to do it? What is that going to do for them in their career and their life, financially, family?

So there are all of those things that we talk about as recruiters that it's not just, and I tell people this a lot of times I'll get a call from a new client and they'll say, hey, can you get me somebody tomorrow? Well, no, it's going to take a while because I want to get to know those candidates we're talking to. And if you want us to do job, we've got to know those individuals and really get to know what makes them tick. Find out about their past performance and see if they're going to be a fit for your culture and your team. You know, again, we do lots of different things with what we do as recruiters. In the past, people would say headhunters, you know? Is that a bad word? Not really. I'm okay with it.

We find people for jobs and we're going to talk to everybody out there that we feel would be the best fit. And then identifying top talent. And you probably have this in coaching when you did this and your dad, for sure. How do you know who's a good player to bring on your team? Where do you need that individual? What skills do you need for your team? That's what we find. You know, it's a lot of fun and I've enjoyed it over the years.

And speaking of identifying top talent, we know when you drive, you know, you drive a culture worth fighting for. Right? You're gonna attract the top talent, you're gonna retain the top talents. You're gonna create this environment where you develop your bench. But there's so much out there now, right? As we deal with the COVID-19 we deal this awful unemployment rate, we deal with these peoples whose world have been turned upside down. What are some of the compensating factors, some of the game changers and leaders, as you look for them, to put them against certain positions that, hey, you know, a pool of three just went to a pool of 20.

Yeah.

How do I. How do I separate the good from the great and figure out which ones I'm going to put against? Cause you can't throw all 20 against them.

Yeah, well, that's a great question. I think it depends on, you know, if I position it towards a. Maybe a listener that might be a candidate, you know, looking for a job. If they're out there trying to separate themselves from the 2030, people that have maybe the same skills that they have, really look at your background, reflect back to your background, really think through some of the parallels to that position you're applying for. For example, if you're looking into a leadership position in healthcare, what type of company are you interviewing with? Do you have some experience that maybe that it's not on the job description, but you have something to add value for clients that we work with. A lot of times they want specific backgrounds. They want somebody with specialty, buy and Bill experience in pharma.

You always hear that they want somebody that understands the access points within the pharmacies, within the hospital setting, sometimes an individual, once you're out. And a lot of what's happened, too, in healthcare, Ed, is some folks, for the first time in their life, their career, they've found that they're downsized and they've never dealt with it before. It's frustrating, but the emotion first is scary. It was anxious. And a lot of times I talk to folks, I say, look, think about your strengths, go through, do kind of a fact finding, get a piece of paper. And just like I tell anybody, pros and cons, what pros and cons do you have? Use that to separate yourself from an individual. What successes have you had? What areas of skills could you bring to that client? Think about really bragging about yourself for the first time.

And that's in sales. There's a lot of guys and gals that, you know, they're very competent, we're confident people. But you have to have the ability to brag in an interview about yourself in a good way. That's showing your skillset, showing your value, and that's going to be important.

Well, it's identifying the reality of who you are and what you've done and what you're doing, you know. So in everything you speak to, right. Reflecting back, identifying your strengths, pros and cons and what have you. Earlier we talked about, so to speak, watching your game film, it all speaks to self awareness. Can you talk a little bit about how significant self awareness, the level of self awareness is for those folks that you put into leadership positions and really for everybody. But let's speak specifically to those leaders.

Absolutely. You know, the big thing that's been in the last, probably, what, five years and maybe longer, and you deal with it is Eq. You know, emotional intelligence. In sports growing up, you didn't know it wasn't called EQ. Right. It's the awareness, situational awareness. Knowing in sports, when the coach said, hey, you got to do this way and you didn't, you'd find out real quickly that you screwed up. And back in the day, I think they even kicked you right in the butt and said, hey, they were full. You know, it wasn't like it is now in leaders, though, situational awareness is that you have to find an individual that understands that servant leadership. How did they get to be the president's club leader.

When I talk to and they tell me how they did it and it's more about we as a team did this. Again, this is a leader, not an individual contributor. We did this. We were able to accomplish this. I've had three or four individuals on my team. Two went to president's club trip. One became rookie of the year. One also became a trainer within the region. I want to find that out because that tells me that they have situational awareness about their team and about themselves, that it's not about me, it's about we. And that's something that I look for in leaders. Individual contributors are a little different. If you're looking for a device rep in the OR, you want somebody, that is what have you done and that's important. I was able to launch a new product to prostate cancer.

Here's what I was able to do in the first year of my employment there. So situational awareness, there's different things that you can think of, but EQ goes back to emotional intelligence. Is that just understanding your environment, understanding the people around you? And I don't know a lot of it. For me, it's values. I always empathize with the candidate, I empathize with the individuals I'm working with. And again, I think the ability that I learned early on in life, learning how to maneuver without a father figure around for a while. I've gotten to know my dad now since my late twenties, after I was married, through a really unique story about how that all happened.

But I could say going back to, and I'm totally going on a tangent here, but going back to coaches, how it would be influenced, I think they influenced me on situational awareness and I didn't even know of how to be who I am. And I think a great leader or a great professional that's out there, you have to have that emotional awareness or emotional even in leadership for sure. I mean, you have to know how to motivate. And I think your podcast with your dad, we talked about motivating players. Not everybody is coached the same way. I think he said, if I remember right, absolutely, you're going to coach everybody. But each individual might need a different type of coaching based upon that individual. I think that goes back to situational awareness, I believe, and that speaks right.

To something I can't believe we haven't touched on, especially in your space, but authentic leadership and authenticity.

Yes.

And I like to break the authenticity down into honesty, integrity and vulnerability. And that has to be a little bit of a challenge for a candidate to sit in front of one of your clients and say, here's how I'm authentic. Here's where my integrity comes into play, right? Here's how my execution and my behaviors are aligned with my values and what I accomplish at company a. And that's how I'll do it at company b. How significant is that authenticity piece?

Absolutely. People have to come across, they're looking for a job. And again, we're talking sales and marketing is really what we focus in. If they come across fake, they're not going to get the job. They have to be authentic. That's what these leaders that I place individuals with want. They find people that are authentic in the way that they carry themselves authentic and giving examples of successes they've had, being yourself and knowing where you came. I go back to that too. I think for life. One of my goals is I'm always going to know where I came from. And I know the struggles in family growing up and then getting through sports and college. And there were times I wanted to quit. Believe me, I think we all were there, but I persevered and I think it's made me a better individual.

I think that may answer where you're going there.

Well, it does. And you touched on values. We keep going back to values and how important that is. And as we wind down here, before I ask you to last question, I want to talk about one of the great things that you are involved with.

Pelotonia.

Can we, can we talk, share that with our listeners? Everything we're about to share is going to be in the show notes. The links will have everything there. I will have your fundraising link in the show notes. Okay, awesome. Absolutely. That'll be there. Tell us the story behind this.

Well, you know, Pelotonia, it's something that here in Colombia started about twelve years ago, probably like you, I know you're doing triathlons now and things like that you've been involved with. I never was a bike guy. I thought, you know, you got to wear this shorts and you're watching this and I'm like, I don't know about this, but as we've gotten, you know, you get older in your life and you get through, at least me, you know, my son's now 18. I coached him early in his life through all different works, even basketball, which is funny. And one of my good friends would give a story on that ed of how I taught people to do a free throw. It was bad. I was not a basketball guy. So I think I did taking a.

Charge or diving for a loose.

Yeah, I wasn't doing this. I was doing this. Yeah, I was like, So anyway, getting back to Pelotonio, it's been around for twelve years. I had a chance to one of the co founders and really instrumental guys, I coached his son in La Crosse for the local rec program of La Crosse because were a lot of dads that didn't know lacrosse. Fortunately, we had a leader that played lacrosse at Ohio State, so it helped us. But they've raised in 2019, I think last year they did 23 million raised for cancer research as a whole. If you look at the twelve years, I think it's $208 million. And 100% of that goes towards cancer research. So the focus has been the James cancer center within here at Ohio State University, the Wexner Center Medical center.

But it also, they've done a thing this year where they're going to separate some of this funding to go to COVID crisis, the pandemic. And it's such a unique thing. This year is my first year, but I'm riding with guys that have done this for two or three years. We're in a peloton. A peloton is where you see if you're watching a race, you go back tour of the France. You see guys and they're positioning themselves. And why there's a team is because the person at the front is taking kind of the wind, and you get behind the guy and that person's called a puller. And you learn this so the people behind you get their legs and so forth. So you work as a team.

This year is unique because of COVID They're not doing the typical, hey, you know, everybody starts at once and the big pomp and circumstance. So they're doing a virtual meeting that you do anything from biking, walking, anything to raise awareness for cancer. And I think all of us, and I heard a little bit about your family through your dad's podcast about your mom and going through. I think we've all been touched by cancer in some way or fashion. What's really neat about this, there are three dates that are going to be on the back of the jerseys that we're creating. And one is a childhood friend that my buddy Frank lost, one of his college roommates. And then the other is the mother, or, excuse me, the father of the gentleman, the orthodontist that is leading the peloton.

And then the third is my stepmom that passed that I've gotten to know later in life, through my dad, in working in the industry, too. We work with a lot of oncology companies that have products out there. I've worked in breast cancer. I've worked in ovarian cervical cancer. In terms of working with companies that help that area, I wanted to be a part of it. I wanted to get on board. We're going to do, I think over 50 miles is our goal. We've already hit 40. Talked about being on the bike seat for that long. It is hard.

You have the padded shorts though, right?

I got the pad shorts now. I'm not, you know, I'm not so macho that I can't do that. But it, you know, it's important. And we're going to fundraise to, you know, give that money. A hundred percent of it goes towards, you know, this foundation, this organization.

We don't always timestamp podcasts, but we need to timestamp this one. What is it this that you'll be doing? Your pelotonia.

Right. It's going to be August 15.

Great.

August 15.

By the time this podcast drops, it'll be awesome. There'll be a few weeks, so we'll have your link, your fundraising link, the information on there, and they can find out more about it. Great. Yeah. But kudos to you. That's awesome. I mean, riding 50 miles, sitting in place is not the most enjoyable, the way to spend a few hours, but so rewarding. And you're right, so many lives have been touched by cancer. So I think that's great work.

Absolutely. Yeah.

And as we sit here and we start to wrap up, I, you know, you and I talk about our kids a lot when we connected. And I have so many friends that reach out to me knowing what I do and knowing what I've done, asking for advice. Kids are graduating from college or kids just received their masters or they're looking to make a career transition. They're in their mid, upper twenties. They're looking to make a move. What advice? As people begin to build their career. Okay.

Yes.

What advice would you give them? Climbing, I don't want to say climbing a corporate ladder, because you and I both identify there's different things that go into the meaning behind why they want to make a move. But could you give three or four bits of. Bits of advice?

Yeah, absolutely. Well, it's neat you said that there are a lot of young kids that I'm talking to that are coming out of college. A lot of times I'll get contacted by somebody especially. I've made a connection with La Crosse community, so I'll talk to athletes in lacrosse right now, because my son's been involved with it. I was certified in us lacrosse. Again, never thought I wish lacrosse was around growing up. It's such a cool sport. Yeah. The offenses run like basketball. It's like soccer, football and hockey kind of, you know, it's a neat sport.

Now, I've never seen it, but I heard indoor lacrosse is just brutal. I heard guys pound on each other.

Yeah, it's box lacrosse. You know, box lacrosse came from Canada, where in the winters, what they would do, they'd cover the ice, and they'd have a bunch of hockey players playing lacrosse, because lacrosse is big, you know, big up there. And those are some of the most coveted players to get recruited. Like, if you look at Ohio State's program in college lacrosse, a lot of Canadians play because of learning how to box. You have a smaller net. It is more physical with a smaller court or field, in a sense, and my son did that. I mean, it was awesome. The kids that played box lacrosse in the spring lacrosse program, you can tell because they're more physical. They have the best skills in hand eye coordination. It's amazing.

I mean, the goal is probably one third of what a lacrosse goal is in the field. It's amazing. And ironically, my son played gold. He plays d. But he wanted to play goal. He wore all these pads. You look like the Michelin man. And you're stopping these. It's so different from outdoor. But anyway. But, yeah, I'm sorry, I took you.

Off on a tangent there. That was my. Yeah, but advice. What advice would you give?

Oh, yeah. So anyway, the advice, you know, I guess my tangent there deal a lot with kids. I also find out that I have a poll with athletes because of being an athlete. I look for that. One of the advice, I would say for, let's say a new grad right now you're in COVID-19 this is tough. Think about that. I mean, we got so many people out of work right now that have skills, that have experience. These new grads are competing with all those people that have that. But number one, I mean, make sure right now, the vehicle where a lot of recruiters look at is LinkedIn has really changed recruiting since 2004. Prior to that, we would do it a different way. LinkedIn really gives you a connection. It's a brand. It brands you.

So make sure that you have a LinkedIn page, update that. Really check it. Make sure that you don't have any grammatical errors. Look at the picture. I mean, make it a professional picture. Don't put a picture of you on Saturday night out with your buddies. That's not going to get it. You got to really think about this. I think the other thing in the COVID right now, think about the areas. If you are, for example, coming out of a business program and maybe you're not sales, maybe you want to do marketing. Look at things outside of maybe what your mindset is, get out of your comfort zone. Think about other areas. And this would apply to anybody out there with skills, maybe not a new grad ed. Think about what you can accomplish out there.

Areas that maybe you never thought of for a job. You know, that could be a business. It could be. I think COVID-19 has created also a lot of creativity. And it's created and, you know, people are really reflecting on their career. I'm in a job, I've been here for ten years. Maybe I do something different. Think about those things right now. But going back to advice, I guess with a new grad, you know, LinkedIn updated, really get your resume. Your resume is a way to get your foot in the door. But it's important because it's the first thing that people ask for is a resume that will be important. So LinkedIn resume and then really research. If you know that you want to be a part of a company, make sure to do your homework.

Obviously a lot of things right now, Ed, people apply online, you know, there's postings and so forth. I think what you've got to do is old school. This is, you know, we used to call it pounding the bricks, right? And you've got to find a connection in that company. If there's somebody that you know that works there, your father, your mom, your aunt, your sister, whoever, find a name, reach out to that person. LinkedIn makes it a little easier. Now you can ping that person, make sure to introduce yourself, let them know what you're looking for. That can go a long way. And then I think what we used to call it was informational interviews. Try to, if you know that you absolutely want to be in healthcare, for example, do some informational interviews. Talk to folks out there.

If you know that you want to be in women's healthcare and that's what your passion is, because you want to help women, breast cancer, any of those things, go talk to a rep. Find a rep that sells for one of the top women's healthcare companies, for example, Boston Scientific. Or, I mean, it could be Natera, it could be any of these diagnostic companies out there as well. Let them know you're in, for example, in Chicago. Find out who the reps are in Chicago. Ping them, see if they'll meet you for a cup of coffee. Virtually meet you now is what we're going to have to do and really get to know what they do.

Find out more because a lot of times, too, reps in the field, if they want to be in sales, they're getting a little bit of a kicker bonus to get somebody hired to their team. I compete against that, but a lot of times you hear internal referrals. But I think that's a way for new grads or folks that want to change industries. Really do your homework, know everything you can about that company and also find out about their competitors. You know, just like you would going taking it back to sports. You know, you want to know that team you're playing against, but you got to know your own team and you got to know how it works and it functions.

So you as an individual have to know yourself and know your strengths and weaknesses and then get to know those individuals out there with those companies that you want to be a part of.

And then how about this? And we'll close with this. How important it is for these young folks, or even just folks looking to make some career transitions, to continue to invest in yourself and work on personal growth. How significant is that?

Absolutely, it is so important. And I think with what's happening now, some of the vehicles like LinkedIn over this COVID crisis, they've done a great job. I think you had somebody one of your podcasts, too. Maybe it was connected to LinkedIn because I think they were based out of Chicago at the time. There's opportunities now virtually that you can do. There are coaching sessions virtually. I mean, obviously, you know what you do, Ed, in terms of leadership training and keynote speaking, if you're a candidate, get involved with that, you know, really see what's out there. There's a lot of books out there. I mean, there's some great books that I look at. And again, I reflect back to athletics. A lot of it are out there. But you always want to challenge yourself.

You want to, you know, if, you know, there's an area skill set that you're really weak on, do a podcast or do a video webinar to get better. We are doing that. I mean, we have some of the newer recruiters in the office. We are going through a training. We're doing videos and things like that just get some insight in the industry. I think as candidates out there, you've got to really take that upon yourself. It could be in your profession, it could be in your life if you know that you want to have a healthier life. And I think in the podcast that your dad did on June 17, it was great. Feed your mind. I was like, wow, that's exactly it. As an athlete, you feed your body. How do you feed your mind? I would love that.

I thought that was fantastic.

And how do you feed it on a daily basis?

How do you feed it? One thing I learned, too, which I realized, your journaling, the gratitude. I sit down every day when I get here, sometimes the night before, but I'll plan my day. And part of it is what I learned when I started here. You know, Ted, the VP, Ted Koss taught me the Franklin planner. And to this day, I still use a Franklin planner even though everything's electronic. I got an iPhone, I got. But I sit down and I go through ABC. What am I going to work on today? What am I going to focus on? And then one of the things I have, and this is really neat on my little bookmark here, I've got, you know, physical work out three times a week at least. Social, emotional, be positive, show gratitude towards others. Mental read, right?

How many people read anymore? Yeah. And then spiritual, pray, you know, and that's something I think a lot of us have is a faith, no matter what religion, you know, meditating, praying, you know, that's important. I think that a foundation in natural parts.

I love that. That pops right into your Franklin planer. And you look at that every single day.

I look at every day. It's right there. And that's old school. It's still to this day. I mean, I have the big binder I leave here. I take it with me and I bring it back every day. Still, I'm a very paper, I'm a visual guy, so I've got to have lots of stuff around.

I'm not even going to show you my desk right now. The power of writing things down is if I still use the phone, I still use the computer, I still use all that stuff. But the power of writing it down is there's something about that.

And you probably learned like I did, I think when you do x's and o's right, in sports, I think, you know, I remember going back and going through all that and film, you know, and I'm sure you watched a lot of film and showed a lot of film. I don't know if it's something in me, but I have, it's, this is weird too, because the art background I have sometimes a photographic memory. I remember things better. I can remember resumes of candidates that I've worked with. I remember where they worked. I can remember sometimes how long they worked there and their skillset. So it's helped me in my career. And I think a lot of it's from the visual, it's from writing things down.

And for folks out there that don't do that, I think even the young folks growing in their career, that's important. And your kids are probably iPads or whatever kids using now. It's important to really teach them how to write and good writing. And I was fortunate. I grew up around educators, so you had to write. And my grandmother had a, coming into her, gosh, her house. She had an old, this is crazy, an old blackboard that she got from one of the schools. And literally we learned how to write on this blackboard. She was a teacher for 35 years, elementary school teacher.

My wife was a teacher, believe it or not, and just left the profession back about three or four years ago and now works for the nationwide Children's Hospital here in town as a coordinator of the fellowship program for the heart center.

Wow.

Wow.

That's fantastic. Yeah. Right outside my office, we got a chalkboard there. We got a chalkboard in the basement.

Yes.

Which has suffered some damage from the family soccer games in the basement. Talk about boxing across. We got a little bit of the family, two on two soccer going down.

Oh, yeah.

My wife is a soccer star and yeah, it gets a little physical down there.

Well, get your kids involved in lacrosse, you know, I know you're a basketball coach.

No, we just had, I was with a bunch of my guys this past weekend, football guys, and we just had that conversation how we wish, because a lot of their sons played high school and college lacrosse. How we wish lacrosse would have been around because it's just such a phenomenal sport.

Yeah, it's a fantastic sport. And you, it's interesting. We had a few kids we have in particular that played basketball. They were probably going to go all the way potentially to win the states this year for my son's high school. And here, lo and behold, you know, they made it to their semi, I think they're regionals. And COVID hit and they stopped it. This kid played lacrosse, too. Phenomenal. But he was a better lacrosse player because of basketball. Yeah, it was really neat on the more of the defense side of it. Which was interesting.

So anyway, that's a whole other podcast about multi sports.

We could, we could go.

It's so important. But John, thank you so much for this was awesome.

I appreciate it. Great. Well, I'm hoping that this would be useful for your listeners and I really appreciate the opportunity to do this. And getting connected through Mark Hyderspock was awesome, that little connection. And I'd love to help you out in any way like I mentioned.

So absolutely.

Let me know.

Absolutely. Thank you. We'll have everything. We'll have Pelotoni, we'll have it in the show notes. And again, I know you love this podcast interview, so go to iTunes, rate and review this podcast episode. Let us know how we're doing that helps us increase our reach. We're in over 40 countries right now. Let's just keep that going. And it's because of guests like you and John. Thank you again.

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