True Grit with Dr. John Byrne

Welcome to the Athletics of Business, a podcast about how the traits and behaviors of elite athletes and remarkable business leaders frequently intersect. The real stories and hard lessons to help you level up your leadership and performance. Now, your host, Ed Molitor.

Welcome back to another episode of the Athletics of Business podcast. I am your host and CEO of the Molitor Group, Ed Molitor. And today I am so excited to bring you my great friend and an other absolute warrior, Dr. John Byrne, fresh off of his most recent Leadville 100. Now, before we get into that, let me tell you a little bit about Dr. Byrne. He's been a business professor for over 30 years at St. Ambrose University, currently teaching marketing and sales, and he previously served as a dean of the College of Business. His credentials include. Now listen to this. A bachelor's degree in finance and economics from the University of Notre Dame, which is enough for most people to stop there. Okay? Then he received an MBA in marketing from Loyola University and a doctoral degree in education from the University of Iowa.

Dr. Burns, dedication and success have carried over into his personal life as an extreme athlete, successfully conquering the Leadville Trail 100 mile run in Colorado, the Wisconsin Ironman Triathlon, and some attainment Rainier in Washington. He's raised over $40,000 for charities, including this most recent time here in Leadville 100, something that hits close to his heart. Raised over $7,000 for Autism Speaks. As this podcast drops and you're listening to it, there's a lot of things going on in the world, right? There's a lot of adversity, there's a lot of things that we are being challenged to endure and persevere that build our resilience. And I just think this conversation gives you so many insights into what makes warriors like John Byrne go.

He's going to talk about the three things were that he leaned into when he was struggling, when he faced something in this race physically that would make most extreme athletes step to the side. He's going to talk about what he leaned into during his most recent Leadville race. Why did he go back? He's been there four times, completed a three, what made him go back a fifth time, and what was his goal? What did he see the gift of Leadville as? And how did he reframe that after he went through these challenges and struggles? And something that I think all of us can pull from right now is how John program himself not to quit with failure never being an option. Think about if we approached every single day, right? We know we need to fail, right?

We know that we need to learn from failure. But when we're in the fight, when it's the true test, right, when it's game time, how do we program ourselves not to quit? And to do our best with what we have, and to do our best when best. When the best is required. And then we're going to talk about our great friend, Rick Fount. Okay. And how helped John in his preparation. Think about this, how helped John run beyond when he was tired. John, thank you so much for joining us on the Athletics of Business podcast. I am so excited to have you here. This has been a long time coming.

It has. Thanks, Ed, for having me.

And let's just jump right into it. I mean, congratulations, your fifth Leadville, your fourth finish. I want to talk all about that, but this one threw some curve balls at you. And just what an amazing journey it's been for you.

It sure has. And you're right. I've done this five times. You would think it would get easier. I think in some ways I've faced sliders, curve balls, knuckleballs, screwballs. But this was probably the biggest curve yet. And as I reflected on this last lead, Bill, it was by far the hardest of all five. Hard for me to say that because the other four weren't easy by any means, but essentially the first 47 miles of my race were going really well. And about that time, I started experiencing difficulty breathing. It's always hard to breathe out there because in this hundred mile race in the Rocky Mountains, averaging over two miles above sea level, it's really hard to breathe. But in this particular case, about a month ago, I was just really struggling to breathe.

And when you can't breathe, it's hard to run fast mentally and emotionally, it's just hard to keep going. But I've kind of got this gear in my head that doesn't like to quit. And I really was committed to finishing. But the last 53 miles were just grueling and, you know, it was a real grind to finish. I was very fortunate that I was able to finish. I had a goal, actually, all five Leadville's. I've had a goal of finishing under 24 hours. That was just a goal I set for myself that I wanted to achieve. I've never achieved the 24 hour mark this time. I had been training for two years, was probably in the best shape that I've ever been in. I think I had the most knowledge. I had a great strategy, I had a great team. The weather was wonderful.

Everything really was lining up. I can't explain what happened. My sister's a nurse. She said, you know, there might just be something about you and the way you respond to altitude that's unique to you. You might remember the California forest fires. They had set in and were kind of sending their dust particles all over the country. And actually, about a week before the race, you couldn't even see the mountains because it was so thick. But by race time, it had cleared up. But there probably was some residue still sitting there. And so I don't really know why it happened, but I just had more trouble breathing this time than any other race that I've run.

That stayed with you the last 53 miles?

It did. And it's funny because before the race, I was hell bent on finishing under 24 hours and was very confident I was going to do it. And if you had asked me before I ran the race, like, well, how would you feel if you finished but you didn't get your 24 hours? I would have told you I'd been very upset with myself and frustrated, and I'd be unhappy. The truth is, the gift I was looking for God to give me was give me my time, man. It's been five attempts. I deserve it. And I didn't get that gift. But what he gave me, Ed, was he gave me an even greater gift. And that sounds cliche, but I have no reason to not be 100% honest with you, right?

And the gift that he gave me was the satisfaction of persevering for 53 miles in over 16 hours when I think 99% of the population would have given up. And just to. To have fought through and not quit and finished was a real blessing to me, and I'm just eternally grateful for that. It wasn't the time I wanted, but it was just something greater. I like to think I'm a tough guy, but on that day.

Well, you are. You're bizarrely tough, if there's such a word as bizarrely. But you're amazingly tough. But I have a question for that. I just love what you said. The gift he gave you was the satisfaction of persevering. Right? And you knew, you now know that after. Was there a point in time? And I'm going to relate this to something that we're. We're growing through right now as a society. But was there a point in time while you were in the fight? Right, those 53 hours where you literally could not breathe normally, was there a time that you realized that, okay, he's given me a gift of persevering, or is that something that was solely found in the reflection of the race?

I think, yeah. Honestly, I was probably a little angry and feeling a little bit sorry for myself through some of this because I've been training for so long, I wanted this. I don't think I realized it during the race, but I was programmed to not quit. So I was like, okay, yes, this is hard. I'm just going to keep battling and I am going to finish. Really, I didn't have any doubts that I would finish, but, man, it was hard. But afterwards, when you're looking for the silver lining, that's what I really came back to is like. And here's part of why I realized that.

So I have two friends, more than two friends, but the two friends that were running this race and one of the guys I just met that day and were running around the lake and kind of getting to know each other a little bit, and he told me that he had completed eight consecutive lead bills. I'm like, wow. He said, yeah, I'm going for my night. So think about it. This guy is like, you run eight, you finish eight times, your confidence level's at an all time high. And he obviously must be a really good runner because he hasn't missed yet. He's 100%. So here's a guy better runner than I am and I find out the next day he does not finish.

Oh, man.

I have another friend of mine who has done Leadville, I want to say, seven times. So the first time he didn't finish. This happens with a lot of people. You don't know what you're getting into. But then some people go back, it's like, all right, I'm going to get this. And they go training like crazy. So this buddy of mine, he has finished leadville twice, under 24 hours. This is what I wanted to do. An amazing runner. Well, the last three times, he has not finished this race. And so again, here's another person that I have no qualms about saying they are better than I am. And they did not finish the 2021 Leadville Trail 100. So I could sit here and whine about why I didn't get the time that I wanted.

And I trained all, you know, for two years and worked really hard. Why didn't I get what I feel like I deserved? I could have that attitude or I could look at these two superior athletes in terms of ultra running and I could be grateful that I finished because I did. And they didn't. And I'm not saying at all I'm a better runner than they are. I'm not. But why did I get a finish and they didn't? I mean, how fair is that? So it's kind of your perspective. Are you grateful for what you've been given, or are you upset with what you wanted or what you weren't given? And my mom and dad were amazing parents, and I think they also instilled in me, be grateful for what you have, because there's always someone that didn't get something that maybe you received.

Right. And to go back to, you know, why didn't they finish? But why did you finish during the race? What is going through your mind? I mean, you went through some incredible physical challenges, and thus is going to be mental and emotional challenges. So what. What is going through your mind for that whole duration of time?

Sure. Well, I've been through it before and. And I've suffered. I suffer every time I run this race. It's like, why do I go back? Some people ask, well, I can answer that question if you want to ask that one next. But when you've done something before, you know you have something in you and you just draw on that reserve and that strength. You know, it's interesting, growing up, the things that I kind of wanted from God was I wanted to be a Michael Jordan, a Barry Sanders, a Derek Jeter. I wanted to be known for this athletic excellence and prowess. He didn't give me that. But what he gave me was he gave me a work ethic and a perseverance. And I think I'm an athletic person.

As far as the normal human being goes, I'm probably pretty good compared to the average person. But when it comes to professional or elite athletes, no, I'm not in their league. But he did give me something that says, john, if you work hard and you commit, you can have success and you can achieve things that are pretty incredible for a person like yourself or, you know, me. And so, yeah, that's. I guess I've learned that is my, as this Catholics call it, charism. That's my gift.

Yeah. So during the race, as you're struggling, what are the things you're telling yourself? You know, I'm a huge fan of Dr. James Piguel. Right. And his secret was he'd start talking to himself and stop listening to himself because you want to hear the negative voice. Right. I'm going. I'm going to control the conversation in my head. So what in God's name is going through that head of yours when you need. When you know you need to get in before 30 hours, right?

Well, it's, you know, several things. Number one, I think about, why did I train for this? It was to finish and to come out and have success. And I don't like to fail. I do fail. But when I have a chance to control my outcome, I want to get my success. So I had that drive. Leadville does mean a lot to me, and I wanted to give it my absolute best. So that's one thing. Two, I do have a confidence that I can deliver and perform. And, you know, again, I had a track record of doing pretty well in that race. But you can't take anything for granted, because attempt number three, I did not get across the finish line in under 30 hours. The third thing was, we can talk about this, too.

But the importance of my success was really folded into my team, and I would love to talk a little bit more about that. Essentially, I had a crew. My sisters, Kim and Debbie, my best friend, Rick Fountain, and Ken's niece, Jen Moeller. Those people took care of me during the race, and honestly, I didn't want to let them down. They made the trek to Colorado. They believed in me. They were staying up all night just like I was. They sacrificed a lot to help me achieve my goal, and I didn't want to let them down. That would have been one of the worst things that I could do. Not only that, but I've got to give credit to my team. Without them, I wouldn't have finished. You know, all the perseverance and attitude in the world sometimes isn't enough.

And I can't even begin to give enough credit to those people for helping get me across the finish line. In particular, Rick Fountain. I don't have to tell you about him. You know him very well.

Absolutely.

Rick ran the last 22 miles with me, and while I did finish 40 minutes ahead of the cutoff, 40 minutes over 100 miles is not that long a time. The way he pushed me the last 22 miles, I needed it. I needed someone with experience, someone who knew me and someone who believed in me. And he was the perfect pacer for me at that time.

So how did he push you?

Making me run when I didn't want to. And I remember some of the vivid conversations. Here's what I'll say. Rick was not a very good friend the last 22 miles, but he was the perfect pacer. Right? And he knew his job, and he did his job. And we talked about this afterwards. And he said, johnny says, I could not let you not finish. I couldn't live with myself. He says, I know how important this is to you. And he says, and I knew you had it in you. It was my job to bring it out in you. So essentially, I'm having trouble breathing. And I'm saying over and over again, rick, I'm struggling to breathe. I can't run. I can walk fast, but, you know, my stomach's hurting. I'm having a hard time breathing. And he would just say, john, you're doing great.

And then he says, let's run to here. And after a while, I'm like, rick, I said, I can't run. And basically what he did, Ed, was he ignored me for 22 miles, and he just kept telling me to run. And I was smart enough to listen to him. And you sort of, as a runner, you resign. You give up your brain and your will a little bit to your team. You put your faith and your trust in them. You may not like it, but that's why they're there. And. Yeah. So if you will, as a joint effort, sure, I've got to put the distance under my feet. I have to be compliant and agreeable. But as long as I just keep doing what I'm capable of and surrender to my team and let them take me in, that's how we got it done.

That's amazing. Can you talk a little bit about what the process is, what goes into the training? Because Rick and you would tell me about some of your workouts, and it truly is mind blowing. I mean, it's the only way to describe it. I mean, I remember Rick calling me about a week after you guys had a track workout. We ran all night. And he told me about where you basically, you have a mental blackout. Like, you'd forget who you were. What in the world makes you think that's a good idea? But now talk about the process, because I really want it. There's so much to be said about how rewarding the process is. Like, every single.

Oh, my goodness.

You know, every single day.

Tremendous. So the running joke is you tell people you run a hundred miles, and they say, I get tired driving 100 miles.

Yeah, yeah.

Which is kind of true, but it's all perspective. Absolutely. This is an amazing achievement. And I calculated it out. And to be honest, if you finish Lead Bill, in your life, you're one in a million. And that's a legitimate fact. So that's pretty special. Our Navy seals, they have a saying that I think Fits in really well with this. And the saying is your mind thinks it can do 40% of what your body can actually do. Let that sink in for a second. So what it means is we don't really fully realize what we're capable of. Our potential is far greater than we give ourselves credit for. Yeah, the 100 miles, wow, that's a long ways. But people do it every year. There's three things that have to happen in order to finish Leadville. Number one, you have to be physically prepared.

So let's talk about that. You're running 100 miles. You're running in two to two and a half mile altitude. So the oxygen is about one third of what it is for us Midwesterners. And you're running up and down mountains, which is really tough. A couple of the mountain climbs in there, to the average human being, they look at the steepness of this and say, no way. And not only. And you're climbing for like an hour straight on what seems like you're almost walking straight up a wall, which that's an exaggeration, but that's the way you need to think about it, you know, to run 100 miles, the physical preparation, okay, you might think running for two or three hours is a long time, which it is. But when you run from three to six hours, it gets exponential.

Then think about running for 12 hours, then 18 hours, then 24 hours. So you have to prepare yourself to run beyond when you're tired. Most people probably get really tired within two hours. Then start thinking about, okay, my workout's just getting started. So you got to settle in with being uncomfortable, getting a pace that you can sustain, and then just figuring out to refuel your body. Sort of like a car, you know, you drive five or six hundred miles, put more gas in it, and you go another five or six hundred. So when you're running long distances, you can run a while, but you better be putting in the electrolytes and the fluids and eating calories so that you can re energize your muscles so you can keep going.

But the body's capable of doing it, but you have to put in the time to do that. Another thing with Leadville is they talk about you need to train hard, you need to train long, and you need to train up. So, again, these mountains will kick you in the tail. So how do you prepare for mountain climbing? When you're in Iowa, we have a little handy device called the treadmill. And it is wonderful because you can set this thing at 12 to 15% incline. And actually I found a treadmill that goes up to 30% incline. I utilize that this year. And when you walk for an hour, you know, hike for an hour and try and turn up the speeds where you're walking, hiking fast, that really builds up your quads and your calves, and it does prepare you to run for that.

You should try and get out and acclimate beforehand if you can. I was out there a few weeks early, so that helped. But, you know, it's a matter of taking care of your body, consistently running long. I remember, you know, when I trained for Leadville, I get to the point when I go run for 15 or 20 miles, I don't even bat an eye. Just because when you're thinking about 100, if 15 intimidates you're in big trouble. So, yeah, to go out and run for two, three, four hours wasn't really a big deal. There's the physical part. That's what you do, right? You. You run a lot. I was running six days a week for the last two years and never ran shorter than three or four miles. I mean, everything was 6, 8, 10, 20, 25, 30, 45. Second part is mental.

You've got to be mentally and emotionally tough. During this race, you will have probably 100 times where you will feel a high and you'll feel a low. Now, the cool thing about it is every time you hit a low, if you can keep pushing, you're going to get another high again. But once you get high, it's going to be low again. So whenever you're feeling lousy in this race, wait 20 minutes, it'll get better. And whenever you're feeling good, enjoy it, but be braced for another low, because it's going to happen. Now, here's the thing. In this race, less than 50% of the people finish, which is incredible because everyone who toes a starting line is a serious runner. They worked hard and put in hundreds and thousands of miles preparing for this thing, but over half of them don't finish.

And it's a testament to just how hard the race really is and how many things can go wrong. But if in all those highs and lows, let's say you get through 59 or 64 lows, you're like, I'm doing good. Well, if on the 60th of the 65th low, you can't get through that, you check out and you're done. So you've got to be consistently and never waver. I think of the movie Apollo 13, you know, they Had a phrase there. We, the guys are out in space and they're. They're losing oxygen, and down below at command Central, they're throwing all the items on the table and saying, guys, we've got to figure out how they can get the oxygen back or fix the ship. And what they said was, failure is not an option. If we can't do this, these guys die.

So your back's against the wall and you really have no choice. And I think in Leadville, you have to adopt that attitude that failure is not an option. You're going to be nauseous, you might get injured, you're going to feel bad, you're cold, you're exhausted, whatever. Find a way. And before the race starts, you have to tell yourself, no matter what, I'm going to figure it out. And you got to have that attitude. And then the third thing, and I feel awkward saying this, but it's absolutely true. You have to have a little bit of luck or fortune on your side. And there's so many things that can happen that really aren't a runner's fault. Our bodies are just interesting organisms. We have bad days on the basketball court.

It's like, you're a great shooter, but this day, you can't even hit one out of ten shots. Why? I don't know. Not anywhere. Shit. You just had a bad day out on the course. You know, maybe your fueling system has worked for a year of training, but that day, your stomach's just. Something's off that can happen, and you don't have any control over it. There's things you can do to help, but sometimes it's just beyond your control. You go over probably 100,000 rocks and tree roots that are sticking out of the ground. If you trip one of those and turn ankle, sprain ankle. You're not running 80 miles on a sprained ankle. I don't care if you're Hercules.

You know, we can tough it out for five or 10 miles, but on this course, to go 50 miles on a sprained ankle ain't gonna happen. So you could say, well, that's your own fault. You tripped over a tree root. Well, okay, really, if there's 100,000 of these things and you trip one, it's hard to blame a person. So someone's got to be on your side. You need a little guardian angel to make sure that things go well for you. And so there's a host of other things that could go wrong. But if you're physically prepared, you're mentally strong and luck is on your side, you probably have a pretty good chance of finishing. But for all those stars to line up, it doesn't happen all that often. Well, happens less than 50% of the time.

The crazy thing is, again, great runners who have finished this race 10 times, the 11th time, they might not finish. Going back to the point about being grateful, it's like, yeah, you can have all your time goals that you want, but if you can run a hundred miles in under 30 hours, you've had a good day, and you better be grateful for it.

I want to go back to. Something just popped in my head as you were talking about Rick, how he pushed you right, the last 22 miles. Now, he may not have been the best friend, but there. Here's a big piece to it, though. Here's a big piece to it.

He was a great friend. I'm just kidding. Your friends do what they need to do at the time.

Exactly. And you're going to know where I'm going. Here's the thing. You were coachable, though, right? Like, you. Even though you push back on it, even though he said, hey, I just said, I can't run, you knew that he had, you know, positive intent. You knew that he was in this, you know, not just with you, but for you. Where does that come from, though? Because when you're physically, mentally just done, like, worn out, where do you get that still? Because you see it today. Like, people. I want to bring this up. People, for whatever reason, have felt that they have the right, the privilege, the ability to put a expiration date on what we are going through right now with COVID Like, okay, I'll deal with that adversity in these circumstances until then, right?

It takes us back to the Stockdale paradox and who made it out of handling, who didn't, right? And guess what? It didn't work out. So screw it. Like, I'm done. I'm not coachable anymore. Like, yeah, you can talk all you want about grit and perseverance, but I just did that for 20 months, so we should be okay. Well, that's not the way it works. So there was no expiration date or there was no. Like, all of a sudden, I'm going to be breathing again, normal. So how was it you were able to tap into that ability to be coachable those last two, you know, those last 22 miles?

Yeah. Well, honestly, it was faith in leadership. You know, I would take a bullet for Rick, and I trust him with my life.

Right.

And, you know, we knew we were getting into. And, you know, you hope at the beginning is like, oh, I'm in control. It's like, yeah, but, you know, you're not. Because I've done this race five times. And so that, you know the importance of getting the right people on your team or the right people on the bus. Rick was the guy.

Right.

I had full faith in him, and he's thinking more clearly than I am. So you. You just resign yourself. But, you know, in an organization, you can move mountains if you have faith in your CEO, in your VPs, in any organization, you know, if you're a player, you have faith in your coach and trust him. And so, yeah, I had great trust and great faith in my team. And to do the things for me, to be my brain, to be my heart, when maybe I wasn't, you know, in full control of what I could do, but I could at least surrender and believe in them. So that's what made it easy. Yeah. To have those guys with me. They had my back and I knew it.

Yeah. And I still have a couple. A few more questions about Leadville and what you went through. You just said something. You can move mountains if you have faith in your CEO or faith in your leader, faith in your coach. And a lot of that faith that you have in Rick Fountain, besides knowing him and being so close for so many years, though, is the fact that you've been in this fight, you've been through the circumstances, you've been through the adversity with each other and for each other for so many years. Can you talk. Come from a leadership position Right.

Right now and talk for what you do for a living, but talk about how critical it is for leaders in the business world, being specific to business leaders in the business world to step into the fear right now with their employees, always, you know, step into the fear with them, be in the fight for them, and to understand what they're going through and to go through it with them so that you have that faith. Right. So there's that level of trust, that unshakable foundation of trust so that you can move mountains together.

Well, you know, the common phrase is, you know, great leaders won't ask their people to do anything that they wouldn't be willing to do. And so, you know, in my particular case. Yeah. I mean, Rick and I, we've. We've been a lot of foxholes together the last 20 years.

Yes, you have.

It's just a lot of the things that we've done. A lot of it's revolved around running, but it extends beyond that. So, yeah, some ways I feel like he's one of the guys I understand, and he understands me maybe better than anyone else in the world. You know, in that case, I guess it was easy. But, yeah, in terms of great leadership, you need to be authentic. You need to genuinely not just say it, but mean it. You have to want the best for your people. And if you can convey that authentically and sincerely, people will run through a wall for you. But it has to be more than just lip service and just a few nice words. They have to see it.

They have to see whether, you know, it's the leader being vulnerable or whether it's the leader physically pitching in to do something or, you know, just, gosh, lots of things. Respect, commitment, having faith in their people. You know, maybe even letting people make some mistakes and supporting them through those mistakes. I mean, that's where you build the trust, right? I mean, it all. It comes down to trust. If you have someone who trusts you, who you think loves you, and who believes in you, wow, again, sky's the limit. Okay, now you just made me go back to the guys I love. Lou Holtz. So for those people that might not know on your podcast, Lou Holtz, retired football coach, what's remarkable about him was he went to probably seven or eight different football programs. And his specialty was he was a turnaround artist.

Every single time, whether it was William and Mary, North Carolina State, Arkansas, Minnesota, Notre Dame, South Carolina. Every time he went to a program, it was losing, it was failing. Within three years, he turned them around. He had these teams going to bowl games. Notre Dame is, you know, that's where his. His mark was most deeply felt. You know, he came in Notre dame in the mid-80s when Notre Dame was probably at one of its low points ever, right? The storied football. He had a national title in his third year. I mean, not just turn around to win a little bit, but they won the whole thing. And he was funny, as I'm talking about these things. He talks about three principles. Trust, love, and commitment. And I didn't say exactly those things, but there's a real parallel there.

So how do you change a culture that quickly? It's those types of things. He got people to buy in. Not just at Notre Dame. He did all these other schools. You know, he did it at Minnesota right before he went to Notre Dame. I mean, I don't know what they were. I had a 2 and 10 team. And then in a couple years, he's got him Going to a bowl game, you know, it's a real gift as a leader to have that. But I think part of his success was he was committed to his people and his team. And I think they sensed that you care about us and you want us to win and you'll. You'll do what it takes to get us there. Football teams, in a way, they're a lot like a corporation or a small business. Right. It's a team.

You're trying to accomplish an objective. So as a coach, you're trying to win games. People above you are trying to, you know, generate ticket sales and revenues and sponsorship dollars. You know, that's a business. But those same kind of principles, they can be used at Apple, Google, Microsoft, you know, Joe and James Steak shop on the corner. It doesn't matter. Those are all consistent principles, right?

No, and that's. That's absolutely perfect. I want to jump back now to. Because we talk a lot about learning through failure. Right. And I do not, let's be very clear. I do not consider your Leadville third Leadville, a failure because you didn't finish, because there's a story behind it. Can you share that story? And as you're sharing this story, talk about what the trails are like. Like what you were seeing, what you were feeling, what you were hearing, or weren't hearing, for that matter. Just take us through that story and then the takeaways from that.

Yeah. Okay, so still painful. So we're going to make this short. So this was my third. Leading up to it, I was like, okay, you know, first time through, I didn't know what the heck I was doing. Back in 2005, when I was 40, 2012, Rick and I ran a great race. I improved my time by 2 hours and 40 minutes. Still didn't achieve my goal, but it's like, okay, I figured now I've run this race twice. I think I've got this thing figured out. So four years later, it's my third attempt and I, you know, we trained hard for the second race, but, you know, I doubled the training on the third time. And I'm coming into this race thinking, all right, man, I got this. I figured it out and I am ready to go. I know what to expect.

And I'm going to come in here and I'm just going to kick this race in the tail and come out a hero.

Wow.

You know, that was my expectation. I felt like I had earned it. So I'm in this race and, gosh, what can I say? You know, I said Sometimes it's not your day. This was one of those times. It was not my day. So as I'm going through the race, like, huh, I seem to be a little bit more tired. I'm not getting to my stations as quick as I did before, and I feel like I'm in better shape. What the heck is going on? I don't know. It just didn't happen. Anyway, so over the course of the day it's like, oh, this is really a lot rougher than I thought. And I was kind of behind schedule. And, you know, at some point I figured I was like, okay, I can finish, but I'm not going to get my time goal.

But a finish is still good and, you know, chalk it up to experience and keep going. Well, by the time I hit an area around 62 miles into the race, it was dark. In the past I had reached this point when it was light out, so it's a little easier to see. So they have the trail marked and in my opinion at the time, it wasn't marked as well as it should have been.

What is it marked with? Just so our listeners.

So during the day they're pink and black ribbons. They're fluorescent pink and black ribbons, so it should stick out a little bit among the green forest. And then at night they hang like three inch glow sticks, lime green. So it's supposed to be pretty easy to see either whether it's day or night, you're supposed to see them. Well, this year they didn't get the fluorescent pink ribbons. They got like a flat pink. They weren't shining as much. And I just don't remember seeing glow sticks. They were there, but they weren't as apparent as I thought that they should have been. So I whined about that for a little bit afterwards. And then I thought about all the other people that didn't miss the trail markers. And then I shut up and was like, you know what? Stop whining, you made a mistake.

So anyway, the short story is, as I was coming to this turn, which I had seen twice before in my previous two races, I just missed it. And so I'm going up this service road and I should have turned onto the trail and I missed it. So I kept going up the service road and now it's like 11 o' clock at night, and I'm like, did I pass it? Did I not pass that? I go a little bit further and now all of a sudden, when you have doubt now all of a sudden everything else is uncertain. So I'm like, seeing, like, is this the path? Is this the path? I'm not sure. And I went off on all these different offshoots and they were all wrong. And I'd actually given us, like, okay, I've lost so much time.

I better just backtrack my way down this road and just go back to where I came from and be done. Well, as I'm going back, then eventually I find my turn. So I've lost all this time, but I'm like, okay, I'm still going to do this. Well, then I just start running and trying to make it. And, you know, bottom line is I just had lost too much time and I did not make the 70 mile cutoff in time. For what it's worth, I was strong, I had energy. I would have finished the race, but the way the rules are set up, if you don't get to miles, you know, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, by a certain time, they end your race for you. And I'm okay with that. I wasn't happy that day, but I understand.

So, yeah, I felt like I was eating a little bit of crow. It hurt. And, you know, I was really frustrated and bad. I worked so hard for this, and this is what happened. And I'm like, do I even want to come back and do this again? And eventually I did, but I had to throw a little pity party and no one else wanted to attend. So after a while, I was like, okay, is this how I. This Leadville experience has been one of the biggest blessings of my life. Is this how I want it to end? Is this the last memory I want to have of Leadville? And when I really thought about it, I was like, no, John, this is a lesson to learn. You know what? Maybe things don't always work out, but it's okay.

And we pick up and we move on. I mean, Ed, you and I both know we never. I fail every day. We don't succeed at everything we do. Why does Leadville have to be 1000% success? And it wasn't. But I came back the next year and I redeemed myself. And, you know, it still hurts. But when I look back on it, I try to think about, what did I learn from it. It's like, well, you can fail and it's okay, and you can come back and succeed a second time. Right? Fall off the horse. Get back on the horse. I love the Nike commercial with Michael Jordan. It's 30 years old, but for us old guys who remember it, he's like. He's like, yesterday, I Missed.

You know, I missed 3,000 shots and lost 300 games and 26 times at the end of the game, had the ball in my hands for the winning shot, and I missed. You know, I failed over and over again. But that's why I succeed. You know, people see Michael Jordan, like, he always wins. No, he doesn't. But you have to lose. You have to try. And sometimes you lose, but a lot of times you win. And that was maybe my moment, too. It's like, okay, so when I go out and speak to people about persevering and motivation and sticking with it, and you set your goals and you work towards them and you achieve them. Now I've got this experience where I say, well, you know what? I worked just as hard this time, but I didn't get it. It's okay.

That's a good lesson to learn in life. Of course, I didn't want to fail. I never planned to fail. But it happens, and it's okay. Look at an entrepreneur, someone who's made it very big in business. Quite often behind that story, there are three failed businesses that nobody knows about. But the things that they learned through those failures is what helped them to succeed. And there's things I learned from that loss that helped me to complete the next few races and away from me a little bit. You know, part of my. I think about, you know, what is my purpose in life. That's part of why I actually ended up doing Leadville in the first place. It took me about 40 years to figure it out.

But I think my purpose, my gift in life is to inspire people through grit and perseverance to do some pretty amazing things. Not that I'm going to show up in a Guinness World Book of Records, I'm not. But 99% of the world is normal. And normal people can do pretty extraordinary things. My gift is not that I'm naturally gifted. My gift is that I set goals, I work at them. I don't quit, I commit. And over time, when you trust the process and you work your system, you can realize success that at one time you thought was unachievable. But along with it, there comes some setbacks. But in this 2016 race where I didn't finish and thinking about all my failures, let me tell you what we did do.

That was a race where I took four or five other guys out there with me, and they got to experience this amazing thing called Leadville. And three of them finished. Three didn't. I was one of three that didn't finish. But because of me doing this, and along with my failure, three people got to achieve something that changed their lives. And we raised over $40,000 for two really cool charities. One was the Navy Seal Family Foundation. So seals that get killed in action, their families are left behind. This foundation helps the spouses and the kids have a normal life and go to college and things like that. What a worthy cause. Another one was a local organization. It's called have Life. This guy started it because his son was tragically killed as a teenager. And so he set this organization up to raise money.

And what it does is it provides opportunities for families who can't afford it to participate in extracurriculars. So sports camps, art camps, music camps, even if none of us had finished the race, when you can raise that kind of money and awareness and bring attention to causes like this, you're succeeding before you even step across the starting line. When you don't get what you want, it's okay. There are other things. Of course I want to finish. I'm competitive. And there's some good things that happen when I do finish for me and for other people. But just because you don't cross the finish line, it doesn't mean that I didn't gain some perspective and gratitude for what I became in the year training for that race and what I helped other people become.

And, you know, one of the really neat things about my life, Ed, we could probably all say this, but there are so many people that say, you have no idea how you inspire me by me watching what you do. And they don't want to run a hundred miles, but they might be trying to lose that five pounds that they can't lose. Or they may be trying to get to the gym once a week, or they may be trying to, like, I'm going to enter a 5K. If you can run a hundred miles, I could run 3.1. And that is super gratifying to me. So even in my failure on that day, there was a lot of success that happened. And honestly, there was some success for me because humility is always good to have.

And, you know, I try to have it, but we all lose our perspective sometimes. I'm a pretty good goal setter, and my track record is a very high percentage of completion. But I think every once in a while, it's probably healthy that I don't always get what I want or get it when I want. And, you know, that helps me appreciate when I do get it. So the following year, in 2000, so 2016, I didn't finish. When I went back in 2017, I finished it. Actually, the time was even slower than when I ran it with Rick in 2012. But I can't tell you how good it felt and how grateful I was to cross the line, because the year before I did cross the line, you.

Know, and you talk about passion and purpose, right. And you have it in every single thing you do. And you talked about raising money for charities, and this year, in fact, you raised over $7,000 for autism speech. Can we talk about that a little bit?

Absolutely. So I have five children, and one of my children was diagnosed with autism at about age two and a half, two and three quarters. And when we learned of that, you know, my wife and I, we doubled down our efforts and were just bound and determined were going to succeed with this child. And it took a lot of work, a lot of effort. We had three more kids after, you know, so we have a great big family of five children. And we had to collaborate with our school system, who was wonderful. We had to engage Ambrose students from education, occupational therapy to work with us. So long story short, in a matter of about five years, we kind of, I don't want to say cured him of autism, but the. The doctor said he doesn't have it anymore.

Wow.

He said, you know, he's going to have some social issues. They gave him a non verbal learning disorder diagnosis. And they said, just want you to know that about 70% of the population also has this. So this kid went on high school and college. You know, he was a dean's list student.

Wow.

He ran cross country in college, double major, and just, you know, one of God's most beautiful human beings in a. Wow. Where am I going? Oh. So anyways, anyway, what happened was the race has become so popular. It used to be you could just kind of sign up and go run it. Well, now so many people want to do it that they enter a lottery system. So I put my hand cat in the lottery. I didn't get it, but there was an option to do to partner with the charity. So I reviewed the list of charities, and there's Autism speaks. I'm like, yeah, I could get behind this. And so they were a wonderful partner to work with. And, you know, the agreement was we raised $3,500 for us. I said, yeah, and I'll do better than that.

So we more than doubled it and gave me a chance to advocate. They need money. They need it for research. They need it to provide materials and resources for families. But they also need awareness. And so I took it upon myself to raise money and to try to use social media to just say, listen, autism, it's one of these disorders we can do something about. But we got to get at these kids early. But their minds are malleable, they're changeable. We can do this, but we got to put resources towards it. And so I'm really proud of that effort. And you know, and again, here you go. It's like, okay, I did finish. I'm really happy. But even if I hadn't finished, this is another winner of a year because this organization benefited from it.

That's awesome. So if the listener would love to donate to Autism Speaks, we'll have the link in the show notes. But if they're listening, can you just tell us what that link would be, where they would go?

Yeah, probably just autism speaks.org I don't have it right in front of me. That'll get you'll have it up later.

Yep, we'll have it up in the show notes. And just incredible. I mean you, everything you do with purpose. Everything you do with passion. How do you pour that? I mean, how do you bring that same energy, that same focus into your career at St. Ambrose?

Thanks for asking that question. I see a lot of consistency in my life. Some of these physical feats and achievements. It helps build my confidence. It fulfills me. I enjoy trying to see what I am capable of achieving. It feels really good. I like to think that it sets an example for my children. If dad can do this, what can I do? But beyond that, I see myself as a citizen of my community and the citizen of the world. I want everyone to have success. I don't have any enemies out there. As I said before, I think my gift is to try to be a positive example for other people. And I'd like them to look at what I do and say, well, I could do this or I could do that.

Maybe they want to do what I do, maybe they want to do something different. But the person point is that they can do it. My career here at St. Ambrose, I'm in my 30th year. I'm a professor in the business college in the marketing sales department. And I love teaching marketing and sales techniques and processes. Probably my favorite part of being on a college campus is I love the environment. I love this age group. You know, you have all these young people coming, starting their adult lives and they're wide eyed and optimistic and they're ready to go out and conquer the world. And it's an honor to be a part of that time in their life. And one of my favorite things to do is when students come into my office and I get asked, it's like, what do you want to do?

Where do you want to live? What do you want to be in? And to help guide and facilitate that and really just to build their confidence, like you can do that because we can do almost anything that we want to do. And I think in business, you know, as a manager, as a leader, CEO, whatever you want. If you're a developer of people, right, that's your job. You have to build confidence in people and let them know that they are capable of so much. So I think there's a lot of parallels between, you know, what I do from a physical feat basis to the same ingredients that create success in our personal lives and in our professional lives. It's all part of the same system here. We used to always say, like, well, you know, your home life is one thing and your per.

Your business life's another thing. That's baloney. You take your personal life to your job every day and more you're taking your job into your personal life and with a healthy balance, I think that's fine. You know, we don't want to go home and, you know, not sleep at night and stress over business. But let's be honest, I mean, the lines are blurred here, especially in a lot of professional type jobs where sometimes you may don't need to be at work at 10 in the morning, but you might need to be attending to something at 6:30 at night. And that's okay. You know, find that healthy balance. But it's all about believing in people, believing in each other, and wanting success for each other. Let's take that into our government. Let's take that into our communities.

This is the kind of attitude that's going to make this world a better place. And we should want a better world for all of us, not just ourselves and our children. Of course you should cheer for your neighbor and you should cheer for the people in other communities because the boat rises when we all succeed. And you know, we need to pull together a little bit more. I mean, we got some factions going on here and I'm not here to be political or pick sides, but, you know, we've become very bipartisan in our country and you know, we see it with the Democrats and Republicans like, well, I don't care about. The idea is, but you know, if I'm a one and you're the other. I don't like the idea. That's baloney. We got to start working together on stuff, and.

Because we all suffer the consequences or can reap the benefits of it. So, you know, we need more collaboration. We need more belief. We need more building up and less tearing down.

Yeah. And we need a backbone. You know, I mean, we need. We need to be authentic, and we need a backbone. And, you know, you don't stand for something. You fall for anything. But what is it that we really stand for as a. As a country, you know? You know, it's funny. I saw something. I saw something the other day, and it's a post that pops up every year, and it comes up on my timeline every year, which I'm very grateful for. It's. I missed 9:12. You know, I missed 9:12, 2001, because that was the day we all came together, right?

Like, yeah, isn't that the truth?

It was. It was a day. We were. We were truly. We were truly one. And we spent the next week or so like that. And, yeah, we need that again in every. Every facet. And, you know, everything comes out in the wash. And I think we're in the wash right now, and I think we're seeing our weaknesses. But, you know, and I think the way you do things and the way you teach and the way you carry yourself, I've got to believe that you have some amazing stories about students who sit down with you know, and ask questions and pick brains. I mean, where is it in the teaching aspect of it that you find your greatest joy? Because I believe that is the same thing you can find as a leader in the business world.

Oh, yeah, gosh. Whole other podcast here. But, you know, just to see our students go out and succeed beyond our wildest dreams is just so rewarding. They deserve the credit. But, you know, you played a role in that, and that's very satisfying. I mean, it's really cool. We started. Yeah, cool. We started our sales program up five years ago, and it's been awesome. More and more kids are coming into it. And I'm not saying sales is for everybody, but it's a really great career. And when you learn how to do sales the right way, it's one of the most fun jobs on the earth, and it's a really important and necessary one. You got to have the rainmakers.

Right.

But we are having kids get into companies that St. Ambrose kids never got into before, and they're succeeding. We had a kid last year. He won a national. We entered A sales competition he won in the whole country. A St. Ambrose kid. You know, we're one of the new sales programs. It's just like, it's really fun. The sky's the limit. And, you know, again, I go back to this potential. There's so much potential out there. And our job as leaders is we need to nurture that and build that confidence, because people are out there operating on 30 to 40% of their potential, and it wouldn't take a whole lot to get them up to 60 or 70 or 80. As a teacher, people are, oh, of course. You know, that's what teachers do. Of course we do, Ed. We're all teachers.

You may not have teacher in your title, but, you know, the fact that you put together these things, you bring together resources, you bring together inspiring people, and you put them on a podcast and, you know, with. With other things that you do, you're teaching people. Any CEO, manager, coworker in the workplace. I don't care what your company is. I don't care what your position is. You're a teacher. We all teach each other. We're watching what other people do. We watch the examples that they set. We see how people conduct themselves. You know, one of my favorite people of all time. Wish I had met the gentleman, John Wooden. I love John Wooden. Real quick for those people don't know about him. I'm not sure how you don't know about him, but anyway, right.

The most successful college men's basketball coach in the history of the game, hands down. I'll go to war with someone on this one. But you look at the way John Wooden did things. He had high expectations, but he always acted with integrity. And he was just committed to excellence. And he wasn't yelling at people, he wasn't threatening them, he wasn't beating on them. He created a system of success. And even his star players, if they chose not to buy into a system, they had the invitation to leave. But once you understand what this guy is about, you want to be part of that system. I mean, one of his old great story was like the way he punished his players in practice. The way most coaches punish their players in practice. Get on the line and run a killer.

John Wooden punish his players by saying, go have a seat. You don't get to practice. And pretty soon you get the message. I want to be part of this excellence. I want to be part of this team. I don't want to sit again. Just, wow, the wisdom of that man and the way he conducted himself on the sidelines. Right. The paper. But never yelled at a referee, Never ranting and raving like you see all of our coaches, most of our coaches do. I get passion, I get energy, but what about class? What about composure? What about respect? What about being a role model? You know, coaches, well, yeah, I got to get on the rest, so I get the next call. John Wooden didn't have to do that. What he did was in the practice, prepared his kids to be excellent.

And then the way he coached during the games, you know, he figured I had to do very low coaching in games, some strategy adjustments, but my job was to coach them in practice to go out in the game. So I'm not going to yell at a player during the game because that's just going to throw them off and then they can't perform. I'm going to support them, I'm going to encourage them. We have to work on things in practice. We'll get after it. But I just love the way the man carried himself. You know, a lot of times, you know, what is it? The. Leo Durocher and I wrote the book, but nice guys finished last. How sad, you know, that's even out there. John Wooden was probably the nicest guy to walk the planet. He didn't finish last, he finished first.

We need to teach more John Wooden in our society than anything because he had excellent performance, but he was an excellent human being. And he's just all the good things wrapped into one. People say, well, our society's changed. People are different. No, that's a cop out. You know? No, People ask me all the time, how are kids different than 20 years ago? I'm like, well, okay, there are some differences in our world. You know, 20 years ago we didn't have smartphones and Twitter. Fine. But I'll tell you, I've been teaching for 30 years. Ed. Kids haven't changed that much. They're not much different than when you and I were in school. You know, we got a bell curve here. You got some amazing, outstanding individuals that I can't believe how great a job that they, their parents have done and they brought it to.

They are, they're more amazing than anyone I've ever seen. And you got some others that probably shouldn't be in college. Too bad. And everyone else in the middle, it's the same all the time. Kids haven't changed. We just are coming up with more excuses and we just need to get back to doing the fundamentals, the right things and, you know, work ethic, commitment, trust, loyalty, faith, belief in Each other, helping each other out. Those have been the consistent principles that were good in 1840, 1940, and it'll be good in 2040.

Amen. You know, and I'm going to say something right now and you know, St. Ambrose University is an amazing place because of amazing leaders like you. And thank you for all you do, all you've done, all you continue to do. I mean, I appreciate you. It's like what you just said couldn't be a more perfect way to wrap up because you're talking about John Wooden, who was a winner. And for whatever reason in this cancel culture, in this society that we are in today, we are afraid to talk about winning. We are afraid. We don't keep score at young kids games. We make getting grades in school easier. We don't want to hurt people's feelings. The bottom line, if I'm going in for a life saving surgery, I want that surgeon to be a competitor. I want him to want to win. Right?

I mean, I do. Can you talk about how important it is and how significant it is? I mean, you said you all have to have in sales, you have to have the rainmakers, you have to win. And winning isn't always hitting metrics, right? Winning isn't always closing the deals. Winning isn't always having more points at the end of the game. But can you talk about how significant it is to really give value to the fact we want to achieve victory?

Oh, absolutely. No money, no mission. We're striving for success. There are no. Everything we do in our life, our personal lives are professionalized. Now the definition of success changes between individuals. Some people, they want to make money. There's nothing wrong with that. Here's another thing that I've heard before that I absolutely love. They said money actually makes you more of a person. It brings out more of who you actually are. So if you're a good person and you make a lot of money, you can be a better person because of the things that you'll do with that money. You'll be charitable, you'll be generous, you'll help other people with it. If you're a bad person, more money will probably help make you an even worse person. You'll use money to hurt other people, to whatever it is, do negative things in your life.

So money's not the problem. Oh, they have too much money. There's a lot of people with a ton of money, but they do really great things with it. They create foundations, they. They donate millions of dollars to causes. I mean, that's really awesome. I mean, whatever we do. And you know, if. If you want to play football, you have a coach, a football team, of course you want to win. That's just part of the game. Now, if you don't win, it's probably okay, but. But you better be striving to get better and better. And eventually, if you keep never winning, they're not going to want you to coach their team anymore and nobody's going to play because that's part of what we want to do in business. We want to win.

And generally in business, if you don't make a profit, you're not around the next few years to make a difference, whether it's making your community better or taking care of an industry or your clients. So absolutely. The commitment to improvement and getting better and succeeding. If you don't have that, wow, I don't even know where you go with anything. But again, it's not only money, but, you know, whatever your goals are, you want to be the best at whatever that is. If your organization and you know, your. Is that it's a nonprofit, well, you need some money just so you can keep doing what you're doing. But if it's getting community engagement, if it's recruiting volunteers, if it's helping literacy rates, if it's feeding the hungry, well, if I only fed 10 hungry people, I'm not doing very good.

You know, my success is I gotta win. Maybe it's feeding a thousand hungry people. So whatever it is, the commitment to success, I don't know how you motivate or function or getting satisfaction if you aren't striving for success.

Well, and you said it. And combine that with what you said about, you know, definition of success is different for each individual, which it absolutely is. I helped coach my son's first and second grade flag football team, touch football team, in the very first practice when the parents were at. And I did this intentionally, okay. And there's teams practicing adjacent to each other. This is the first practice, and we're all doing at the same time. And I was. I have a tendency for my coaching days to be able to project my voice, if you will. All right? And I said, fellas, here's the thing. Let's be very clear. We are going to win every single game and every single practice. And mom's dad's head snapped and looked at me, right?

And I said, and you know, the kids get all fired up, they get all excited, they start five and chest bumping. And I said, now here's what that means. I said we have to do four things. Every single time we're together, we have to do four things. And if we do those four things, that means we win. We win, okay? And I go, anybody have any idea what those are? And they all threw all these things out. I said, first thing we have to do is or we have to have fun. Okay? So now I'm going to appease all the parents that are listening to you. We're going to have fun. But here's what I mean by having fun, right? You're going to find joy, you're going to be happy about number two. And number two is we're going to work hard, okay?

And you know, if they're a little bit older, I said, those don't have to be mutually exclusive. But they weren't ready for that yet. And I said, number, I said, number three, you're all going to be great teammates and you know what it means to be a great teammate. So we talked about each one. And now meanwhile, all the other teams in the league are like flinging footballs. They're, they're getting their running laps, doing push ups is all we're talking about. Okay, I'll talk about. And I said number four. I said, you're gonna be great sportsman. I said, that's the fourth thing. You're gonna do those four things. And we've won every game. But you know what the beauty of it is going into week four, Dr. Byrne, you know the beauty of it.

Is you're 3, 030.

We've yet to give up a point.

Yeah, that's awesome.

But, but that's it. But it's those things. The reason they're a good team on the field is because that's all we're focusing on. Yeah, we're running plays. Yeah, we taught them how to pursue and angle and stuff like that, but that's it. If those kids can get excited about doing those four things as seven and eight year olds, I think they're on their way.

I think they're trying to add to that and I think you just naturally do it as a part of those four things is to get better. And obviously they are doing that because they're working hard and because they're having fun and because they're being good sports. They really are evolving as young men. Yeah. I mean, as a Coach, you could go 08 and it's okay, but it'd be a whole lot more okay. Is that at the end of week eight, the Kids are executing better. They're better than when they started. But of course, we like the victory. But, you know, if you don't emphasize the things that you talked about, Ed, you know, now we're encouraged, like, okay, well, let's do anything to win. Let's take the guy's knee out. Let's cheat. We don't want that.

So, you know, we want to be a John Wooden, right? We want to succeed with integrity and do it the right way.

Well, and you achieve what you emphasize, don't you? I mean, you achieve. And then my son, literally, we play a certain town. It happens every single time we play these. They'll give their kids six strikes because they don't want Johnny to feel bad about the fact that he struck. It's no big deal. You struck out. Now go sit down. Now let's figure out what's next, right? And give you. I mean, it's just the way it is. I mean, you just. You achieve what you emphasize. If you emphasize certain fundamentals, the byproduct is going to be that you're going to achieve victory and that's it. And success is different for each of us. You know this as well as I do, if not better.

Sometimes, guys and gals, I mean, men and women coaches, their best coaching job is the years they have the least talent and might win the fewest games because they pulled the most out of those people. Some of your best races, I mean, look at what you just accomplished with your fifth led. Look at that. That might be your biggest achievement. The fact that you couldn't breathe, for God's sakes, for the last 53 miles.

Honestly, it was more satisfying in terms of effort than the race I ran with Rick, where I ran it two hours faster. Now, that race I ran with Rick was very special for a lot of other reasons, but in terms of challenging myself when physically I was probably the most vulnerable. Wow, that was incredible. I'm just so humbled and so grateful.

Well, and you talk about special for other reasons. When you ran with Rick and Rick Fountain, I mean, he is exactly what you're just talking about. He is as competitive as any human being I know.

Oh, gosh.

I mean, he's an ultra competitor. He is. One of. Both of you are two of the toughest gentlemen that I've ever been fortunate enough to. Blessed enough to know, yet he is a gentle soul. Now, he'll. If you were playing against him, you know, on the football field, he'd rip your head off, Right? But he'll help you Up.

Yep.

Yeah. Things will knock you down again and then I'll help you up again. And. But no, I mean. And that's just what's so cool about you two is you haven't stopped doing those things.

It's been fun. And we're not done yet. No, I mean, what's the great things? Are you.

Are you doing number six or what's going on here? And do not try to talk me into it, because I'm not doing it. So.

Great question. Here's my answer. I'm not going back next year. I think I'm done. It still bugs me just a little bit. I didn't get this goal. I'm not saying I couldn't get it. Maybe I won't, I don't know. But I think maybe it's time to move on and focus on, you know, kind of more speaking and delivering my message and doing other things. But Leadville is a tremendous time and effort, commitment, which I don't regret. I've become a better man in the process. But there are other things that I still want to do, and when I focus on Leadville, then I don't get to focus on other things. So I won't say never. But I feel like I'm not going back to run it. I would go back and pace anyone in a heartbeat. I love being in that environment.

It is the most amazing experience I've ever had in this planet. But back in 2017, after I ran my fourth Leadville, I looked at a post recently that I. A reflection post, and it was like a month later. And the whole post smacked of. Leadville has been such a great part of my life. I'm going to miss it. I'm done running Leadville. And then four years later, I ran it again. So now I can't even trust myself. So I'm thinking I'm not going back. But who knows? Maybe I'll be back there again someday. But I can definitely say it's not like, oh, I'm planning in three years, I'll be back there. I'm not even thinking about that. If it happens. But right now, I think Leadville's giving me more than I could possibly ask for.

And I hope I have a chance to give it back some more in some different ways.

And you will do a great job. I mean, you have an amazing story to tell and you do such a good job of delivering. Where can people find out more about or reach out to you about your speaking?

Yeah, the easiest thing is to go to my website, successisworking.com that's awesome. I think that's pretty easy to remember.

It is successisworking.com and I love that. And we will put that in the show notes as well.

Thank you. And actually, Ed, I'm getting ready probably in the next 10 days to send my book into publisher. I'm hoping to have books out around October 15th and I'm super excited about it. It talks about my first four Leadville experiences and a bunch of other things that Leadville has led me to. It's kind of like all these incredible things started for me at age 40. I'm not sure what I was doing the first 40 years of my life. I was busy doing things, but kind of the physical feat started age 40. And it has been a fun ride the last 16 years. And I'm pretty excited about the next 16, to be honest.

Awesome. And I have to ask you, do you have. Are you allowed to leak out or do you even want to leak out what the title is of the book?

Sure. I'm still. I think I've got it. I think I'm gonna. It's called True Grit. Possibly could change until I submit the publisher, but I think True Grit is the title.

And will there be a subtitle like the Lessons I learned from four Leadville's.

Or I think it's True Grit, a story to inspire you.

Awesome. I love it. Well, we look forward to it. And as soon as that releases mid October, end of October, whenever, we'll put a link to that on the show notes as well. We'll share. We'll share it on social media. I look forward to it. Hopefully I know someone I can talk into. Get me an autographed copy that would be phenomenal to put up on my shelf up there. I like to do that with my podcast guests. But. But John, I cannot thank you enough. This has been absolutely amazing and I appreciate you appreciate everything that you do.

Well, thank you for your time. And again, I just. It's a joy to speak about some of the things that I've done and I hope it positively touches others that I may never meet in their lives. But if people's lives can better because of some touch point they've had with me, that makes me feel really good. And so I'm grateful for the opportunity to spend time with you today. And as I said, we're all citizens of this wonderful planet and I want everyone to enjoy as much success as they possibly can.

I love it. Well, thank you.

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