Heart Equity: What Great Coaches Teach Leaders About Culture Under Pressure

If you don't have character, it's really hard to build trust. If you don't have trust, it's really hard to build culture. If I'm not willing to be vulnerable and share and show some pieces of who I am and my failures as well as my successes, then I can't expect that to come from any of my players.

This is where I believe the best of the best in terms of leaders and coaching leaders. They understand the human connection. They understand the impact, both positive and negative, that they're having, and they understand that the impact and influence they have with these individuals will last long after their playing days or their, you know, your professional career, your time together are done.

When I talk to people, talk to CEOs or potential clients, I'm like, I'm in the business of people. I can help you get your people right. I can help you navigate your isolation as leaders, because we all know that the higher up you go, the more isolated we feel.

Hey, this is Ed Molitor, host of the Athletics of Business podcast. And man, do we have an episode of for you today. One of the things college coaching teaches you, and it teaches you fast, is that culture shows up when pressure does. And God knows, especially the state of the game now. There is so much pressure at the college level now. It doesn't always show up when things are easy, not when you're winning by 20 and it's a walk in the park, but when expectations are high and resources may be tight, at least compared to others, and. And people are looking to you for clarity and how you are going to get things done and. And how you're going to get them done fast.

Which is why I'm so excited to bring in today's special guest, my good friend, Jeff Carlston, who spent 25 years as a Division 1 head women's volleyball coach. Now he led programs such as Ohio State, Ohio University, and Concordia St. Paul, building nationally ranked teams and winning nearly 500 matches along the way. What I respect most about Jeff is that he didn't just coach for the wins. He coached for growth. And it'll become readily apparent as you listen to our conversation. And today, Jeff brings that same championship mindset into the business world as a founder of in system leadership, working with CEOs, founders and leadership teams, navigating growth, pressure and transition. His work is grounded in simple but powerful belief. When purpose, people and culture are aligned, performance follows.

Now, this conversation is going to go deep, and we talk a lot about heart equity, culture under pressure, leadership, isolation, in what College athletics has taught Jeff and I, and what teaches others about building teams that don't just actually last, but that they thrive in the face of adversity. If you believe that the behaviors of elite coaches and high performing teams still matter in today's business environment, you're going to get a lot out of this one. Jeff, thank you so much for joining us today on the Athletics of Business podcast. I honestly can't think of anyone that's more aligned with the athletics of business and the belief that the traits and behaviors of high performing teams, elite athletes and high impact coaches are key to your success in business. And speaking of which, congratulations on all your success.

I couldn't be more excited to have you joining us here today.

I appreciate it. It's really great to be here. And yeah, you and I, kindred spirits in terms of the college athletics and sports and building teams and how that transfers into organizations, companies, leadership. It's been really exciting and I'm really happy to be here.

Your journey is nothing short of remarkable and there's so many places that we could start and there's so many jumping off points. But I want to talk about 25 years as a D1 head coach, right. What that has done for you as a leader and how your in system playbook has evolved from that and the hard equity and I am, and I know you'll find this hard to believe. I'm going to shut up and listen, okay? But just take us through your journey and how you got to where you are today because the world needs more Jeff Carlston's we really do so truly appreciate you. Just take us through that.

That's a great intro, my friend, and I appreciate it. I mean, first and foremost, just gratitude, right? I was so fortunate to meet so many mentors. Mike Hebert, Terry Pettit, you, I mean, just so many people just along the way in terms of connections. Because I firmly believe that really good people and people who want to serve, whether it's in athletics or outside of athletics or in the community. I was in the Peace Corps. I met so many people that way. And the volleyball community is a very close and awesome group of people. So first of all, just been really lucky with my career, stand on the shoulders of a lot of really awesome people and learned a lot, made a ton of mistakes. I was writing up a bio and I won however many I won.

But I also realized how many I've lost and how many moments I've messed up, which I think any leader can relate to. Right? It's we get.

We probably get a lot of learning opportunities.

Yeah. Yes. We probably get a lot more credit for the wins, and we definitely get hammered on some of the losses. But that's the growth, right? The pressure. The moments are so great when you see someone achieve or a team overachiever do something, you see a plan in place that you put in together with your staff in the spring, and you see them come to fruition in the fall. I love it. I love the dynamics of seeing individual player grow. I love the patterns and connectivity of teams in general and all the conflict and the successes and how we communicate and how we rise above all that sort of everything that comes in on the journey. So. And for me, moving into the world of business and corporate leadership and the dynamics of that space has been really incredible.

I've always believed that there was leadership is leadership, and when you're navigating people and pressure and there's a lot of pieces to it. So for me, I've coached in high school, I've coached Club, I've coached D2, I've coached Mid major at Ohio University, and I've coached at Ohio State. I learned a ton at every place, and I'm still learning today. So it's been an awesome, very fortunate journey for me.

Well, and that continuous learner. Right. Is something that's been so key to your success. But one of the things that you're well known for is that connectivity piece and building, however you want to describe it, a powerful culture, a winning culture, a championship culture, an elite culture. Right. But you did that. Can you talk about the significance of collective character inside? As I prep for this podcast, there are so many different things that. That I read, a couple videos that I watched, some, you know, pieces that I listened to. And as you talk about character and you connect that to what that means, to your culture, can you talk into that?

Absolutely. We spend a lot of time and spent a lot of time on really getting to know who were bringing into our space. And the word family gets overused, but it really is that for me, and I think for all great coaches, you got to be. You need to be very aware of who you bring in and do your homework. And it's the same thing with business, same thing with companies is being aware of. Is this a person of high character, high integrity. Especially now with the nil and people transferring and there's so much movement in athletics, but certainly in businesses and in the corporate world as well, there's just. It's just so easy to leave what's going to keep them to stay? And for me, that's the hard equity piece, which we'll talk about.

But I think you gotta get the locker room, right? And I think everyone knows what the locker room is, you know, on a football team or a basketball team or a volleyball team. I think one of the coolest things that I've been experiencing working with CEOs and companies is where is their locker room? Where is that set up, you know, because, you know, that's a space after a meeting. You know, people are going out to eat and what are they talking about? Are they aligned with what we're saying? Are they. Is there not alignment? It's reason why people will stick around. The reason why people will leave is how's that locker room?

So for me, bringing really great people in, and then you have to be really clear and straightforward with who you are and what you're about and why you're doing what you're doing. So character is. If you don't have character, it's really hard to build trust. If you don't have trust, it's really hard to build culture.

One of my favorite books, and like I said, I always have it here. Legacy, right? New Zealand, All Blacks. But it talks about being values based and purpose driven. I think foundationally, when you can do that as a culture, no matter the type of adversity that you're going to go through. And, and we've discussed this before. It's, you know, during COVID my big thing was this. Your culture during this challenging time is either going to be revealed or it's going to be exposed, right? How significant is it to have shared values? How significant is to have common language, incredibly.

And shared experiences, right? I mean, shared experience, going through things together, good stuff, bad stuff, that's what solidifies that connection you have with someone. And I always talk to my leaders and talk to my team and talk to my staff and talk to myself about if I'm not willing to be vulnerable and share and show some pieces of who I am and my failures as well as my successes, that I can't expect that to come from any of my players or any of my staff or shoot any of my friends, anyone. So for me, I think isolation comes from this sense that we have to have it, right? That we're not willing to share our weaker moments. And for me, I've. I've learned over time it's the opposite. Those shared experiences, those shared character are revealed through moments of struggle, right?

And that's how resilience is built. And you know, I think the best teams I've ever been a part of in athletics and outside of athletics have been those that are genuine and authentic, you know, and the leader is the lighthouse for that. If a leader is willing to say, look, I'm going to mess up a lot, I'm going to ask for some grace. I'm going to communicate as best I can. I'm going to ask that from you as well. We're going to build up that heart equity, that trust, that connection, that community that I believe in you and I trust you and I value you once you have that.

And then you sprinkle in shared experiences which are sometimes in the office and sometimes outside the office when we always did stuff, as much stuff we could outside of the gym because I knew that would help us get better and compete when it's 15 all on the fifth set, I knew that those experiences were going to come and going to help us win. And I think the same thing is true when it comes to business.

All right, now you've said it several times and I'm going to get to it. Hard equity. Talk to us about hard equity, but talk about where it came from. You know, I think it's so important because that's the reality, substance behind it.

Yeah, I mean, I think it came from my last couple years in athletics working at Ohio State and then Ohio University, where, you know, Ohio University. There was no way of really competing with resource equity, especially in the day and age of nil. Like there was no way were going to be able to keep up with the financial piece of it. What we could do is we could create really deep, lasting victory that comes from heart equity. I value you. We're going to have real conversations, we're going to have some fun and some joy along the way. We're going to build trust, we're going to build that shared experience and we're going to work hard and we're going to that character piece and that value, that shared value that to me is the hard equity.

And I think now more than ever with AI coming in and the nil. And I believe culture and I believe hard equity is at the heart, at the center of culture. People will stay, they will stay in your company, they will stay on your team even for more money if they feel connected. We all want to belong. I don't care who you are, I don't care if you're 26 year old. I don't care if you're a 56 year old. We all want to feel like what we do matters and that we belong and that we have some connection and purpose to what we're doing to our work. And to me, hard equity is that glue. So companies that spend time building that, I think they're going to retain their best people longer, which obviously equates to money.

It equates to time, energy, and they're going to build a legacy. People are going to come because of hard equity. They're going to stay because of hard equity and legacy. It's built.

You know, one of the things I think that's really misunderstood about college athletics on the surface, people think they get it. The amount of pressure that coaches are under, okay, first of all from the parents, from the recruiting trail, from the boosters, from the administrators, from their own personal expectations, right. Monetarily, like it's such a world that can be so transactional. But yet the reason that you and I get into coaching or got into coaching was transformational, right? We understood the opportunity you had to make a lasting impact on your athletes on and off your playing surface, right. My question to you is this hard equity, you know, you deal in a high pressure environment in the business world. Let's take, we really niched into a life science space, a ton of money involved, very transactional, very metrics driven, which is great.

You and I both love stats, we love metrics, right. But at the end of the day, the bottom line is you have to produce monetarily, you have to produce production wise. But can hard equity, right? Can the culture you build, the values based, purpose driven, can that move it from a transactional feel on a day to day basis for the leaders and their team members to a transformational experience? Is that what happens?

I believe that 100%. I think I agree. And we do a lot of assessments and measurements. I know you and I have talked a lot about that. I love, I love that the work you're doing there and that reveals that as well. The relationships, right, the relationships piece and building that connection to people, profits and performance goes up 30, 40% depending on what you're looking at. And so the one piece that I think companies miss, they're really good at navigating supply chain. They're really good at, they have brilliant people with MBAs that are really working on that financial piece for me. And one of my mentors told me, he goes, don't ever apologize for not having your mba. And they have plenty of people who can handle that.

Your job, you're an expert at building Teams, you're an expert at leadership and that in the end you build that. You get the locker room right on the front end, you build that culture piece and those other pieces. The synergy between the two to me is off the charts. So I think you can make money without getting the culture right. I think you're not going to make nearly as much. The metrics will back that up. And more importantly, how are those leaders? How are they navigating that? How are the people? Are people, are they wanting to stay? Are they looking for other jobs? Hard equity keeps people around. You're building relationships, you're making those connections, you're being honest and it doesn't always have to be good news. But you're having great conversations, you're challenging your workers.

In the end, that is going to pay back dividends in terms of your time, your energy, how much above the line stuff is now below the line because we're putting out fires, territoriality, we're losing our best people, retention, whatever it might be. To me, that hard equity piece is the glue and the foundation to all other things.

Let's talk about the relationship piece and let's talk about the connection and the connectivity. What's helped you be so successful in building long lasting, meaningful relationships where you've had that ability to challenge your players, right? Challenge them in the classroom, challenge them on the court, challenge them in the community. What are your keys to success there?

Well, I think, I mean I'm not afraid. I really enjoy having one one conversations. I think communication, going, grabbing coffee, being aware, that intuitive feeling that okay, this person may be struggling. I always talked more with my non starters than my starters at the beginning of every practice. House, practice house, school. How's your sister doing? You know, getting to know what was going on with their personal lives to some extent. Their, you know, if their dad was sick or their grandpa was sick.

Right.

I always wanted to spend more time with some of our non starters, our role players because the role players are getting their playing time, they're doing, they're in the midst of it. But for me as a leader, having awareness of that, who's that new person, that up and coming emerging leader in your company, Are they swimming? Are they drowning over there? Or do you have a mentor connected to them? How much would it mean for me to go grab a cup of coffee with that individual and have a conversation, hey, how are you doing? How can I help? I've always enjoyed those, I've always felt those are incredibly Important. So those little touch points, one one, and I think also just listening, sitting back, and, hey, how can I help you? How are you doing?

Because I think there's a lot of people I don't think I know. And, you know, this isolation is real. And isolation comes from a lack of communication, the feeling that I'm the only one going through this. And once you break that barrier, I've done this with a lot of my groups and a lot of my CEO groups. Once you break that barrier and get people talking about that integration, missing your kid's baseball game and the stress and the frustration that comes from those types of things, and just that balance that's not there between what that person considers sacred, which a lot of times is family, but it's also work. How do we bridge that and how do we actually have real conversations once we get that going? To me, everything changes the moment that happens.

Yeah, I'm going to come back to the communication piece and the isolation piece, but I have to give a shout out to our dear friends Dr. Jerry lynch and John O' Sullivan right now. And you had an amazing podcast with them. And one of the things that you talked about, want to make sure I get this right? Was the way it was titled was some wins will never make the record books. And you told this story about a player. And if you could share that with us, because truly, like, this is where I believe the best of the best in terms of leaders and coaching leaders. They understand the human connection.

They understand the impact, both positive and negative, that they're having, and they understand that the impact and influence they have with these individuals will last long after their playing days or their, you know, your professional prayer, your time together are done.

Yeah. It's emotional. Right. You and I both have, you know, anyone who's coached, there's stories out there. You know, I think for me, one of my players, I met up with her about a year ago. We had coffee. She was really struggling when I took over this program. Didn't even want to play. Was pretty much done with volleyball. I knew she had some more in her, and I really liked this person, and I just felt like she needed a pep talk, if nothing else. And we grabbed coffee just an hour long. Didn't really think much of it. And we just talked. And she said, you know, I'm just. I'm not a leader. I just think I'm going to be done. I said, no, you are a leader, and this team really needs you. I believe in you.

Will you come back and About a week later, she decided to come back. And over the course of the year, she not only became our leader, she was our captain. She was an all conference player. She went on to play overseas. She sent me some pictures from her apartment overlooking the Eiffel Tower when she was playing in France. And these are the moments. I was just so happy for her, right? Fast forward five years. We've kept in touch here and there. And she comes back because her little brother's looking at the school, and her and I go grab coffee again, and she's like, jeff, you need to understand, like, your name comes up every single day. Between my grandma, my grandpa, my mom, my dad, we talk about you a lot. And you really did.

You saved my life and you saved so many things that my life would be so different had we not had that conversation. And so I don't think you can under or overestimate the power that can come from one conversation, one interaction. It's not cliche. It's real. And I think as a. As whether you're a CEO, a founder, a head coach, a father, a mother, whatever it is, those conversations, that's what shifts it from transactionality to transformation, and that's how lives are changed and impacted. I want to build that. My passion is to create that feeling not only on teams, but on teams that are in businesses. And I 100% believe that's possible. Even in transactional, there's a lot of transactionality, finances. You got to make money. I get that. It's a both.

And you can do that and leave a legacy and impact people in real ways.

Well, and that's just the thing, like the performance that you can drive from the relationships that you can build. When you're building the relationships for the right reason, they don't have an agenda other than to serve going into the relationship. You don't have an agenda other than to understand the person that you're working with and how can I help? And is everything okay? And. And I think sometimes when I hear these clients, you know, sometimes I'll have someone say to me, when we're doing our executive coaching, hey, I. I don't know how I missed it. I'm going so fast. I just don't have time to pause and have that conversation. Well, that's how you missed it. You just answered your own, you know, curiosity, like, that's how you missed it. But to take the time and the benefit of it.

But when you do things the right way for the right reason, again, it comes back to how we started this conversation. The values based on and the purpose driven. I have to ask, We've talked about this, but for the sake of the listener, you know, we're shaped by our circumstances. We're shaped by our past experiences. Right. And our circumstances don't define us. Somebody had an impact on you. Somebody got to you and connected to you in such a way and at such a level that you felt compelled to. Like, that's amazing. I want to be just like that. Who was that or who were they or what was the situation?

Man, I've had a few of them. I mean, Rick Clayman was my cross country running coach back in high school. And he was. He taught me about passion. I mean, he. He ran until he was 92 years old, ran marathons, but he built, you know, the largest cross country running team in the country. There's 140 of us. So he taught me about passion and the love of coaching. Mike Hebert was really my mentor. He passed on a few years ago, but he was my guy. We connected on Monty Python, the Holy Grail, and from there on we became best friends. And he was my guy. And he taught me what doesn't get measured gets lost. You need to measure the importance of statistics, measurement, goal setting, re rinse every game, every practice.

We did a lot of work in data, and he showed me that said he was also incredibly emotionally intelligent. So he had that balance between, look, we can look at data, but in the end, we're really in the business of people. And so for me, when I talk to people, talk to CEOs or potential clients, I'm in the business of people. I can help you get your people right. I can help you navigate your isolation as leaders, because we all know that the higher up you go, the more isolated we feel. And you and I can experience that as head coaches. And I, I see that pattern over and over again with all the leaders I work with. That idea of isolation, to me, just needs to be fixed. And it can be fixed.

And I've seen it, what happens when we deal with it. But Mike Hubert's my guy. He taught me so many things and he gave me so many opportunities as well. So that's my idea.

Well, it's interesting because one individual said to you two things that you and I talk about often. And we believe wholeheartedly what get. What doesn't get measured gets lost. But we're in the business of people.

Yeah, right.

So my point is this, like, doing things the right way for the right reason and working your lips off and being wildly successful at a, from a metrics perspective and numbers wise and dollars cents, those are not, despite what many people think, those are not mutually exclusive. As a matter of fact, they go hand in hand.

Absolutely. That's the bridge or whatever it is. I think that we need to connect is what we're talking about is not foo y like out there a lot. The connection you have with your business, with your people, with your clients, not just your clients, with your staff, with your C suite people, whatever it may be, that is the good stuff. That is what's going to help you build something that matters and people will stay. If you get the culture right, if you get the locker room right, your ROI is going to be time. It's going to be your energy, it's going to be your ability to go see your kids baseball game. It's going to be allowing your people and not micromanaging because you're letting go because there's trust. And all that's been built on the front end.

And the bottom line of that, you measure it, of course, you measure by quarter. What are we doing right, what are we doing wrong? Just like a basketball team or a volleyball team, in the end they are 100% synergistic. Right. And if you do, if I'm going to pick one, you're going to be successful, but you're not going to build a legacy. And so measure, work your butts off, get your people right, build that hard equity, build that connection, create value in your people as much as your product. And that's when the good stuff happens.

I'll never forget the first time were sitting here having, I think we had pizza that night when you came into town and we're sitting there talking and you start talking about your in system playbook. All right, this is where I want to transition because I want you to talk about what you're doing now, like what your programs are, what you're doing, what your business is. Because to me, I can't get enough of it. Okay, so talk to us about your insistent playbook, where it came from when you started it and the results that you've seen.

Yeah, I appreciate that. I'm excited for us to go get pizza at that place again. By the way, in system came from, it's a volleyball term for anyone who knows volleyball really the idea is to be in system more than your opponent. You're either in system or you're out of system. There's no gray area. And you know, the Whole objective is to for your opponent is to try to get you out of system by serving tougher, by putting the ball certain places, whatever the case may be. And so you're going to be out of system a lot. You could take this into any sort of sport. Right. How quickly do we get back in system? Are we creating our own problems that are getting us out of system?

Let's measure it, let's figure that out so that the next time we get out of system, we know why and we can get back in the system quicker. In system allows you to keep your people, it allows you to be way more efficient. So you have a blockage. Whatever the case may be, let's just say onboarding your emerging leaders are coming on and they're not getting integrated quick enough or they're leaving earlier and we're not being able to retain our best workers. And so we're losing not only money, but we're losing that valuable time that we put into these people. And now we're sitting here trying to figure out how to navigate this. Plus the optics now are people are leaving our company. Why are they leaving our company? Well, what's the blockage?

The blockage is, you know, we're not mentoring, we're not creating value, we're not building community. And so, you know, I've worked with 20, 30 year olds, you know, that's what I did for a living. So I really love this piece. And it's probably the one piece people are not doing right, in my opinion and is getting that the younger generation connected sooner, stronger, and so they'll stick around, but it takes time.

Well, and that's just it, right? Like people want three things. They want, they want to know that the work they're doing is important. They want to know that they're valued and they want to be coached. And it's not their job to conform to us as much as it's us as leaders to figure out what makes them tick and how we can connect. And now while we're talking about the blockages, I love this, by the way. Okay, you create something the ide. Do territorial behavior, unresolved conflicts or rogue individualism quietly erode trust?

Yeah.

When you work with your clients, how do you get to that uncomfortable conversation for them? Okay. Where they have to be vulnerable, they have to be honest and say the things that you need them to say that they need to hear themselves saying, not necessarily what they want to. Okay. How challenging is that to get them there?

It can be challenging, but I again, it comes down to that one on one connection. Right. Leaders know when things aren't perfect, when there's some leakages. Right. My role is to create an opportunity for them to be able to have a conversation, not with, not being critical, no judging. Dude, I've been there. I've been there, you and I.

And we'll be there again. And we will be there again. Yes.

And so for me, sometimes it takes time, sometimes it's quick. You know, if the pain is at the level where they just need to get it fixed, you know, we start talking about that, we can get into it pretty quickly actually. But I think there's also, it takes a little bit time to figure out, okay, what's really going on here. There's usually so we could, it could be like we're having a hard time retaining some of our best workers. And that's starting to hurt, you know, because most leaders I believe are. That hurts, that hurts them. Why are people leaving my company that I don't want to leave? The problem may not be mentoring. It may be a disconnect between that person and me as a leader.

It may force me to look in the mirror a little bit and go, what do I need to do to build that connection with my cEO or with my new emerging leaders? What do I need to do? And for me, that's a sweet spot for me. And it takes time, it's not expensive, it literally probably costs them nothing other than bringing me in to help them navigate it. And it just is a shift in mentality. That's all it is. And so, you know, the blockage is one thing. And then we really get into, okay, how do we rectify this? We problem solve what's really going on here. And that's open ended. Questions. I have seven to 10 questions that are very reflective. We do some assessments. The reality though, this is a people thing.

So I don't get too bogged down with numbers in this space. I'm like, what's really going on? And then we get into, let's get into codifying. We have a pretty good idea what's going on. Let's put an action plan in together. So when not if we bring in some new emerging talent or when not if there's some conflict in our marketing department or our sales department, we have a blueprint laid out that we've agreed upon between us and our workers that this is how we're going to handle this situation. And then, you know, the ROI is time, money, energy, legacy. So it's not as hard as you would think, most people that I work with are at that point where they feel like, I'm stuck. I need a coach, I need some help.

Just like anyone would if they're missing a three pointer, they're not learning how to do the crossover, they're struggling or whatever the case may be, you know, it's. A coach can come in there and be pretty transformative pretty quickly. And I, I love it. I absolutely love it.

And then your last one, the amplify forward. Right. And I love this. What would disciplined accountability around culture? When we talk about accountability, we're, you know, people are thinking numbers, thinking people are thinking output.

Yeah.

But when you talk about disciplined accountability around culture, you're starting to talk about lead measures. You have a video when you were still coaching, forgive me, I don't know if you're coaching at the Ohio State University. And I had to emphasize the. Because I know I have quite a.

Few bucket listeners here.

I know I don't want those emails to come in.

Yeah, Be careful.

Very careful. Okay? But when you talk about the discipline, accountability around culture, hiring leadership, unlock. Right. But you were doing a video and you just put, you know, I don't know what age the players were at their coaches, that you had to be said, doesn't matter where anybody is, doesn't matter who's on what side of the net. What this is about is creating a culture, Right? Creating a winning way. And here's how you do it. And you talked about eye contact, you talked about, you know, affirmation. You talk about that a little bit. Like, what does that really mean?

Yeah, I created that drill because I realized, how do you measure culture? It's called plus 25 culture. And I wanted to be able to measure culture within a moment. Right. Because you can win points, you can lose points, and the culture can be. You can lose a match or lose. And your culture was actually really good. You did things the right way. You just lost. And you can go back and then you look at the metrics. Okay, we're played the game the right way, we're doing the right things. Where are we missing out? How do we get that, those inches back? Right? And so really it was. We found that it was really about that connectivity between individuals in that moment. We're gonna create a bridge, we're gonna have honest conversations. We do a lot of high fiving.

And so it's like, hey, that meant a lot to me. When you had that conversation with me. I really Appreciate it. High five. And now we've created, so we would actually measure in our gym, touching moments. So basically, where there's connecting moments. Right. Meaning. So it could be like an eye contact. It could be just verbiage. It could be actually physical. But there were connectors on your team that would do it 120 times in a practice, and there'd be others who do it 12, like, okay, well, we need to get. And it wasn't always physical. It was body language. It was movement. It was words. There were lots of things. And so for me, we always wanted to bring in kids and train character and culture and communication. So for me, how does that work with business?

It's when you have a meeting, what is the purpose of that meeting, and what do you want to get out of it? And are you connecting people as well as the metrics of what. What that job and that task is at hand, and there's ways of doing that. So there's a million teachable moments, I think, along the way. And that drill was just a way. How do you measure it? And we actually have it. We have an assessment that I bring into businesses that are. That's very similar that I stole from that drill. Obviously, different. It's a different framework, It's a different arena. But the idea is the same as how do you measure what good culture looks like? That's what we do. And it's been fascinating.

How have you seen that play out in the business world? Because, you know, sometimes people kind of. They pull back a little bit. They think it's a little hokey, and the hokiness actually comes from, I think, their own fears, their own anxiety, their own trepidation of seeing themselves. You know, it's something they've never done before. Getting outside their comfort zone.

Yeah.

So how do you see that happen in the business world?

Well, I think, first of all, one of the. One of the things we talk about is every business is. Is in a season. They're in a season. Now we talk about what that season is. Where are they at? Where do they want to go? And then we go, okay, what do we need to do? We reverse engineer it backwards. So if you have a quarter to fix this, or if you have a. A year that you need to get whatever it might be, your. Your numbers up, or this is the quarter, we will just look, go in and we'll have a conversation about, okay, how do we make that happen? We reverse engineer just like we would in. If you're in a locker room, you got to get Your locker room. Right. Your locker room's not right.

You have conversations, you figure it out and you move forward. Otherwise you're going to relive it over and over again. So I do agree with you. I think once people realize that I'm not there to judge, like I'm walking with you. I love the Sherpa culture and I love the idea of like, okay, we're what, we're going up this mountain together. I'm going to support you. I'm also going to challenge you. I'm going to be honest with you. And there may not be a lot of people who are willing to do that. Especially if you're. The higher up you go, there's probably less people that you can actually trust are going to be honest with you. And so for me, I'm going to be there and I'm going to support you 100% and I'm also going to challenge you.

You said you were going to do this. That's not what's happening. Let's fix this. And so in a very non judgment, I'm with you, compassionate way, I can kick some butt and also support. And I think once they realize that I'm not a judger, I'm not going to be someone who's going to. I'm just going to hold them accountable and be with them and make them better. Just like any great coaches, then that's when things really starts going, start going.

When you start to talk about the relationship piece, as I listen to you talk, I think about some of the different coaches I've met over the years, some of the different leaders in business. And one of the things that comes back to me that still startles me and I don't mean this again. We don't judge. But it still amazes me that there's folks out there that really struggle with the need wherever it comes from, but that need to be liked by their team members as opposed to focusing on what's right. Right. Like the, like the relationship. It's going to come. It's going to be a byproduct of you doing the right things as a leader and the accountability piece and the service piece.

But can you talk about when you feel this need as a leader to be liked, not respected, not under, but liked. I, I need to know that they like me.

Yeah.

How challenging does it make it to be able to build this culture that allows you, gives you permission to push them outside of their comfort zone? Right. Because they know. Because oftentimes if I like my Leader I don't like. I don't know how it's going to go when we go through some crap, when we go through some adversity. I don't know, because there's some things, yeah, I like you, but there are some things showing up. Like, how challenging is that?

Yeah, very challenging. Everyone deserves clarity, clear conversation, efficient communication, early direct. To me, that's the beginning of the relationship is I can trust this person. I may not like what they have to say. I may not even like how they're doing it. But I know that they're going to have, they're going to be honest with me and then we can have a conversation from that. So I think if the relationship and connection is built through that honesty and through that space, so be it. But is not the end game. And so for me that all I ever, you know, and I've talked to my many ads about this as well, is like all head coaches are not staying up late at night in my opinion anymore. They're not staying up because of their budgets. It's a pain in the butt. They don't like it.

It's frustrating. I think coaches and CEOs are having a hard time sleep because of the uncertainty of their worlds and leaders, I think leaders, one of their main jobs is to at least as much as they can. That's within their power to be direct and honest so that there's not those surprises or that I've said one thing, I did another thing. So for me, that direct communication, creating systems, you know, okay, when we get out of system, this is how we're gonna handle it to get back in system. And it's clear that's what I love about the in system, out of system as much as we're talking about people and connection and culture. It's a very systematic. It's in the name. It's a systematic assessment and plan that's really built on productive action to create a blueprint for when things go wrong.

We can fix it and we trust that we can fix it and we're gonna do this together. The more you can share moments and connections before that, the better you're going to be able to work through conflict together. So I think the liked piece can be very problematic. It's great until things aren't great.

And that's the thing. If you really work with a leader who you know has your back and you know will challenge you in a respectful way, who you know will push you outside of your comfort Zone, but will provide learning opportunities and create that order and structure that you need. I really think that, like, that relate. That will come with time, or you'll just have that. That connection piece. Because at the end of the day, what is it that. That we're all after? And it's driving performance, their performance, our performance. What has been one thing that you really, truly miss about coaching in the athletic world, even though you're getting it with the. The volleyball club. But you and I both know, right? Like, it's. As you have figured out by now, I'm a little odd when it comes to, you know, some things.

And people. People ask me, I've been out of it for a while now, right? People say to me, like, hey, do you miss it? You got to miss the games. You got to miss this. You got to miss that. And I tell them, I said, you know what I really miss? I miss the practices. I miss the recruiting. I miss the recruit. I miss building relationships. I miss getting. I miss getting to know new people. I miss sitting in my office knowing I could pick up my phone at any time and call one of my guys out there in the business, not knowing that they're probably going through something similar.

Right.

Or can I miss the fraternity of it? The games are sort of, you know, they're the games. And yeah, it's great. The band plays, it's loud, it's nuts. You get that adrenaline. But you talk about isolation when that one's over, right?

Yeah.

You miss seeing the growth and you miss the getting to know the families. But what is it, And I'm not trying to give you answer, but what is it that you miss about coaching college athletics?

Yeah, that's a great question. I've also been asked that quite a bit. I miss the problem solving, the cadence of being a coach. We play Friday whether we win, lose or draw. We're playing again on Saturday, and we have. We get together with my staff, we'll get together with the players. Hey, what went right? What went wrong? I love that collaborative. We're in this, climbing this mountain together, that. That journey together. And I felt I was always my best when something went wrong, when a kid got hurt, when something came in that just threw us. We are in a rhythm. We're in a rhythm, and all of a sudden, bam, we're not. I felt like that was when I was at my best, was responding and getting our team ready for that next match. And I think that only happens when you have.

You spend time in the culture we spent. I Also missed the preseason. I love the first two and a half weeks because we. You haven't lost enough.

Your players probably didn't, though.

No, they did. We changed a lot over the years. Like, we. We weren't. They were doing stuff over the summer, but, you know, it was all about team building. You know, hadn't lost a match yet. Everyone's eyes were big. You had a bunch of new freshmen or transfers kind of coming in, and it was a whole new group. And you hadn't. Like in volleyball, you don't get to train them over the summer. You don't see them until August 8th. And we would do a team retreat. We would do a lot of team building. We would. We would work hard. We didn't implement our systems. Watch video. We, you know, we did. I really loved preseason. I'm like you, the games, especially in the Big Ten.

I talked to a friend of mine, Thad Motta, who some people may know was a coach back at the Days, and, well, he's at Butler now. He's an awesome. He's back. Yeah, he's an awesome dude. And I remember him talking about, you know, in the Big Ten, if you won, the drive home, like, the sun was always out and there were birds, like, landing on your shoulders in the right, you know, it was just beautiful. And if you lost, you're like, what? How'd I get back to my house?

What.

How am I here? It was like.

Or you're driving around aimlessly, right?

Yeah. You're just wandering. I'm doing laps because I don't want to go back in the house yet. I'm like, nope, I'm not ready yet. I got kids. I got my wife. I'm not quite ready. One more lap around the block. But I don't miss the games. I don't miss the pressure of those games. I miss the buildup. I miss the culture. I miss connecting with players. And the story I told you about my one player going to weddings and all that. Those moments I do miss.

Yeah, those are the special ones. But I have to ask you this before. And I can't believe time has already flown by before I ask you this last question. Where can folks find out more about you, more about the in system playbook, about the whole program, where social media, your website, all of this. Now, all this will be in our show notes. It will be on the website. But I would love for you to share that. We're the best.

Yeah. I mean, any. Insystem. Leadership.com. We have a website. All the information is there. Jeffinsystemleadership.com that's me. I have a lot of people reach out to me. I don't know if my phone number is on there as well. I love talking on the phone. We can do zoom calls. I don't mind doing road trips, so. But insystemleadership.com, it'll be on social media, be out there. Facebook and Instagram and LinkedIn and everything. So, yeah, I'm excited. It's a new adventure, for sure. But it's been really cool. Yeah. You and I have talked about. You still make those connections because you're working with people, individuals that either want to level up or who are a little bit stuck. And we've all felt that way.

And it's a transformational work that we do and it's serving people and it's different than coaching in college, but there's a lot of similarities and I'm having a blast with it.

Well, what's really cool about your work and it's the approach that we both took to college. Like, we're going to figure it out, right? It might not be perfect, it might not be, but we're going to figure it out together. And that's something that's really special, that's something that's really unique, and it's something that's really powerful. Speaking of powerful, I have to ask you, I mean, master at building cultures, right? As you go from the athletic world to the business world and you start talking about team building, sometimes people, you know, try to do the whole cheerleader thing, like just root people on this and that. We're going to motivate you, motivate you. And I both know it's not sustainable, Right. It's about, you know, being able to get people to do things they didn't even believe they were capable of doing.

Right?

But let's just say you take over a new team in the business world, right? And you notice that there's a little bit of divide that you feel like comes from a lack, or maybe there's not, but there's just a lack of understanding each other because everybody has a story. And when you get to know your teammate's story, that you become closer, you become connected, you work for each other, not just with each other. What are some of the ways you go about that? Like developing the cohesive team and a team building exercise or conversations or whatever it is you want to throw out there?

Yeah, no, I think it's. It's different for every Client or every organization I work with. I think you're 100% right. It's. For me, it's. Culture is. Is how you behave under pressure. How do you. How does your group. How does your team behave when things aren't going well? Anyone can. If you got a great quarter and everyone's. Everyone's crushing it and no one's leaving, that's not that hard to have a good culture. It's what happens when things don't go well. What happens when the supply chain breaks down or there's Covid or an important person leaves the company or whatever it might be. That's where culture really reveals itself. So for me, it's shared experiences. What can we do that allows me. And frankly, this is what we could do across the country that allows me to understand you as a human. Right.

I don't necessarily agree with some of your ideas or even some of your thoughts. We may not go hang out and go to a baseball game together. I'm not sure. But for me, it's about creating experiences where they get to know each other. And we did what's called a disc assessment. I don't know if you've ever done that, but we did that. And one of the things that. And I use this as well. And because of this quick story, we had two players, our two best players, both all Americans, both played professionally, kind of have at it. Because one. One showed her competitiveness by screaming, yelling, fist bumping, chest bumping. The other one was super chill. She was from Venezuela. Very different personalities. Two best players. And went through this disc assessment, and they were on polar opposites. One was like. Like raw.

And the other one was very cerebral. And the one who was cerebral came out and said, look, how dare you. Don't judge me just because I'm not screaming and yelling and fist bumping. I am just as competitive as you. And they started talking about how they were raised and their upbringing and their households and all of that. And it became very clear that they just grew up in different places, different countries, literally different environments, as we all do. But they both wanted to win. And that moment, that team went on to be a top 10 team in the country that year. And that moment of a nice little bridge, that just helped them understand that we are actually speaking the same language. We both want to win. We just see things through different lenses, and that's okay. It doesn't have to be like this.

Kumbaya. It was a real honest conversation that I had the honor of leading. And sometimes you just need someone there to be able to say, look, and you ask the right question. And then they start talking about how they were raised and how they view conflict and how they view competitiveness. And everything changed. And for me, that's what I bring into the businesses and bring into organizations is it doesn't have to be anything even that crazy. You don't have to go on a hike together. Although I do like doing those things outdoors. I think there's something to be said in a time and a place. It's really just creating them. Understand that we have a shared goal. That victory is defined by all of us.

And that's values and how they're laid out and the character that is created by the owners and by the leaders. But ultimately, we just may speak a different language. And that's okay as long as we find that bridge that we're actually, we both. We all want to win. And so I'll tell you what, I.

Don't know if you did that intentionally, but that was beautiful. There's no way to put a better way to put a bow on this conversation than the story you just told. That was awesome, Jeff. I can't thank you enough. We could talk for hours. We will have you back on again. We'll talk more. But thank you from the bottom of my heart. I know for the listener, I speak for them as well. This was awesome.

Well, I appreciate it. Thank you so much. And I'm looking forward to grabbing that pizza again down there in Chicago here soon.

Absolutely. Thank you for listening to the athletics of business. Be sure to give us a rating review so we know how we're doing. For more information about the show, visit theathleticsofbusiness.com now get out there. Think, act and execute at the highest level to unleash your greatness.