Building a Caring and Collaborative Leadership in Biotech and Pharma with Mike Campbell

Psychological safety within an organization. Safety within an organization. One of the reasons that I went back and pulled this book back out again is because obviously, as a company that I'm in now, we just went through an acquisition earlier this year. So we're integrating, our company that we had into a new company. And so clearly that creates a lot of kind of, you know, emotion. It also creates a lot of questions. And so, you know, this is a book that I had gone through in an executive leadership program that I was put through multiple years ago. And it struck a chord with me. But the book, I think, defines it.

Well, to kind of talk about your question here, it really talks about how you create this kind of psychological safety for people so that not only do they feel like they can move forward, but allows them in the workplace to be able to innovate, it allows them to grow. It allows them to learn and kind of move forward. And so a lot of that psychological safety, though, the way I interpret it, is really about giving people the room to be able to do things and empower them to do those things, allow them to make the mistakes. But that comes through actions. I mean, I can stand up in front of a large group of people and I can say all these things, but until they see it in action, it doesn't mean anything.

And so it's about me and my leaders making sure that we are actually pulling this through, that we are empowering them, that we are giving them a voice to be heard, and they can talk about what's going well and what's not going well, and they see those actions coming through. I think when you really get to that safety piece, because nobody's willing to really get there until they see it.

Actually happen as a leader, there's a saying here on the wall. Self awareness is the competitive advantage.

Okay?

As a leader, how significant? Because you and I both know, like, we can get so caught up into the busyness and the craziness that we default to a certain behavior we may have had years ago. How important is self awareness in being able to create that psychological safety and recognizing when it's an opportunity like this right here? No matter how adverse this situation is or how annoying it is or how untimely it is, this is an opportunity for me to help foster that psychological safety.

Yeah, I think one of the things that and I can see myself doing this earlier in my career and really kind of getting punched in the stomach over it. And you learn, right? You learn not to do certain things, for sure, right? But I think one of the things that I have picked up through the journey this past 30 years is that nobody should see my leadership style change, regardless of whether we are at a high or whether we are at a low or whether we're going through something really complex. And that's something that I try to keep on the forefront, because that style, that approach, that leadership approach should never change. And so that helps keep me in check.

But it's things around, really, the drivers in leadership for me are all about not taking myself too serious, right, and being able to showcase that. And then things like being able to simplify and be able to help people succeed through simplification. It's things like you're never as good or as bad as your numbers. Meaning at the end of the day, you're good at what you do, and you may have ups and downs, but it's a team approach. And so just if you're having a lot of success, well, let's be careful and let's make sure that we recognize that there was a lot of contributors to that success. It wasn't just about one person. And the same is true if you're having a rough quarter or if you're having a rough year.

And so it's being able to balance those things so that regardless of whether you're having a lot of success or whether you're not, that leadership doesn't change. That approach doesn't change.

And that speaks to one of the tenets of my life, of our business, and the way we do things, and I'd like to think of our family as well, is authenticity. And the way when I talk about authenticity, I break it into honesty, the ability to be honest with yourself and others, integrity. So your actions and your words are aligned. And then the one that I think is so significant is a vulnerability piece, right? Not feeling like you always have to have the answer, but being willing to seek help elsewhere, getting the answers. How much does authenticity show up in that trust to be able to create that environment in the consistency of we talk a lot here about being the face and team that your voice. Being the face and voice that your team needs to see and hear.

How significant is that and how connected that is to you in being consistent.

In your leadership style? Yeah, I mean, I would love to say there's a great tool or tip or development around something like this. I don't know how else to be honest. Some of this is just how I was raised, I guess. I don't know. I get a lot of kind of jokes, if you will, because I use a lot of my grandmother saying as I lead people, my grandmother was wise by I mean, she would say things to me as, like, the arrows of truth can be dipped in honey. And so I didn't really understand all that growing up. But when I started leading people, it's like, listen, you can lead people and you can still do it in a way where you don't demean them, right?

You can have a hard conversation, but you can do it with kindness, and you can still do it, is the point. And so it's some of those things, Ed, that I think comes out in that authenticity. It's who you are. And so I don't know how else to be any different. I mean, I actually, believe it or not, I actually got feedback at one point in my career that I was too transparent. I'm not sure I understand exactly what that means, but I actually wear that as kind of a badge of honor. Okay? I don't mind being too transparent, right? And so it's some of those elements. And it's not just me.

I mean, I surround myself with really good people who believe the same things, right, that have kind of the same leadership tenets that ultimately fall kind of within that servant leadership approach. And that's how we build out part of our organization, part of our leadership approach, part of our leadership thinking. And so it's really in that authenticity piece where we're just who we are. I'll give you a great story real quick. So I had come from a big pharmaceutical what you would consider a very conservative pharmaceutical company and kind of the blue suit, white shirt, blue or red tie only kind of organization.

And I had an opportunity to go to this kind of emerging biotech company that was headquartered in the West Coast that was all about culture, and they were all about kind of this we don't want to be like all other companies kind of approach. And I remember going there, Ed, and were preparing for a big meeting, and I was told that I was going to have to dress up in a costume and be a part of this skit on stage as part of this award ceremony. And I was thinking, first of all, I thought, they're pumping me, right? I mean, this is not really about to happen, right? But it was real, and I did it. Here's what I learned. It was all about self deprecation. It was all about putting leaders up and allowing people to see them in a completely different way.

They were on to something. Now, I'm not a proponent of dressing up in costumes at business meetings. I mean, that's not what I'm saying. But getting to that point where you can not take yourself too serious, that's the lesson, right? So that was part of that kind of transition moving forward, of being able to think about, okay, well, how can I allow who I am to come through in my leadership? And a lot of it is around being transparent, being authentic, it's just being real with people. And I think that's the piece that I saw come out of some of those things that I did at that biotech company.

And the more authentic you have been.

And you have become, the more vulnerable.

The more open, right? The more honest in return. Have you seen the people that you lead in return?

They become more authentic.

They're more willing to open up to you. They're more willing to share what makes.

Them tick, which enables you to be.

A better leader for them.

I think so, Ed. Obviously, I think one of the things that is probably a sign of that is that as you think about kind of the journey that you go on in a career, usually there's multiple companies, there's acquisitions that happen, there's integrations that happen into new companies, and the people piece becomes even more important. And that's what you end up learning, is that you actually reach a point in your career that it's about who you work with and for, and it's more important than almost anything else, is aligning yourself with the kind of people that you want to be around. And so I think about those leaders that I have now. Many of these leaders have followed or have been with me at multiple companies and multiple acquisitions. They had choices. They had choices to go other places.

They had choices to go and do other things, but they've chosen to continue to work together. And I think a lot of that has to do with because we think the same way, we believe the same way, we lead the same way. They trust, and I trust them. And so I think that's an indication that authenticity, that leadership that it connects and people that want to be with like minded people, it kind of connects us together as we take this journey through different organizations.

And do you find over the years, when you continue to work with these folks and like minded individuals, you share, at least you're aligned in the values, but it allows you to set these exceptional standards and have extraordinary expectations and at the same time hold each other accountable. How does that work?

No question about it. Well, I mean, it works just as you described. I mean, that's exactly how it works. I think we align on what our business objectives are, what our culture tenants are. I mean, we align on all those things, but we hold each other accountable for those. The folks that are on my leadership team have no problem calling me out, and I don't have a problem calling them out with the errors of truth being dipped in honey right? And so it's not like it's a good process for us, and I think it's consistent, and we're committed to it. And as long as we continue to be committed to that, as long as we continue to hold each other accountable to it, then there's no reason to think that we can't move the entire organization forward.

Now, I'm going to transition here into talking about something with the emerging leaders and high performers if I can, but I have to go back to 1989 Iron Bowl. Okay. An amazing picture of you sacking gary Hollingsworth, your celebration, I can only imagine the rush that you were feeling. I can only imagine what was going through your head, how ecstatic you were. Okay, now you get into the pharma business. Could anything come close to matching that? And if so, that feeling, right? That feeling of accomplishment like, this is why we do the work. This is why we put in the work. If so, what was it that matched that?

Wow, what a really thoughtful question. I think the only thing that I can put my finger on that is similar to that experience from the 1989 Iron Bowl would be. And there's multiple examples of this, but it's that ability or that accomplishment of seeing people that you've invested in being able to move up in their career. There's a gentleman right now that is CEO of a company that I trained back in Gracious. It was probably early 2000s as a brand new unexperienced salesperson, and I was his trainer, and he's CEO of a multibillion dollar company right now. And so those kinds of experiences are the only thing that comes close to what? That 89.

But it's that investment in people and seeing them succeed, that feeling of accomplishment, or at least proud, you know, proud for them, you know, feeling like you had some level of fingerprints in the process. That 1989 Iron Bowl was all about 18. That over accomplished, right? And so that feeling of being able to accomplish something with a group of people is the same kind of feeling when I can have an opportunity to invest in a person and be able to move their career forward.

And here's what's really cool about and this is exactly why and this was not pre. We did not talk about this before. This is something that I asked specifically with a purpose. I had a gut feeling you were not going to say, because after your conversation eli with your boss that you made President's Club in your first year, I had a feeling it wasn't going to be about numbers. It wasn't going to be about awards. It wasn't going to be about trips. It was going to be about the impact that you had on people that have gone on to do other things where your leadership impacted them exponentially. And here's my next question for you on that. Does a high performer always make an effective leader?

Absolutely not. No, I mean, it's not leading is obviously about being able to get to performance, but leading is not performance. Right? There's multiple examples of where we've taken a high performing salesperson and put them into a leadership role, and they failed miserably. And I blame us for that. I mean, we didn't prepare them for that. I say this all the time. I will not promote a skinny tree, meaning I will not take somebody who's only done one thing, call it sales or marketing or market access or payer related contracting or any of the dynamics that go into a biotech kind of pharma environment. The people that move up in the organization and the people that we invest in from a development standpoint and we invest in everybody developmentally.

But what we try to do is make it a very broad tree so that you've got experiences not only in sales, but also in marketing, but also in market access. And that we put you through opportunities to learn leadership principles and to be able to put some of those in action. But no, it's taking a high performer and putting them in a leadership role is a recipe for disaster.

So is it safe to say that advice to emerging leaders would be to pursue different roles in different capacities, learn different things, wear different hats? Instead of feeling like after two, three years of absolutely killing it that you're ready, that you get what it takes to make people perform. I mean, that's not what it's just about, right?

No. I use this example when I have an opportunity to mentor. I have zigzagged my whole career. I've taken lateral moves, I've taken moves up and sideways, and on paper it would be a step back. But the reality is I got some great development coaching early in my career that said, listen, there's two ways you can advance your career. One is to be an inch wide and a mile deep, meaning being really specialized in your area, that's valuable, right? Organizations see that as value. The other way is to be just the opposite, right? To be a mile wide and an inch deep, meaning you know a lot about the organization and multiple functions and that makes you valuable.

Well, Ed, I don't know if it's my Add or I don't know what it is, but I was never the person that was going to be really satisfied being a mile deep, I get bored. So for me, it was more of a learning that said, hey, man, I just want to go do these other things and learn so that one day I would be prepared to take on more responsibility. And I'll know about these other departments. So I spent time in finance. I spent time in sales and marketing and market access and all these different functions. Because at the end of the day, I knew that for me personally, that was going to give me an opportunity to take on more responsibility and actually run an organization that had all of those components to it.

Because I knew not a master of all of it, but I knew enough where I could be in a good position to be successful. So this whole skinny truth thing is analog that I use quite a bit.

Did someone give you that nudge? Was there a mentor that said, hey, listen, Mike, if this is what you want to do, here's your approach. You have to zigzag. You have to wear different hats, was there a mentor that shared that with you?

Well, I think there was multiple, but that initial mentor was the one that was talking to me about the inch wide mile deep or the mile wide inch deep, right? And so that concept really struck me. And so that's how I managed my career, ed and right or wrong, but that's how I kind of approached it. Even today, I'm not about the next level. I'm okay. Zigzagging and getting more experiences and learning more. I think that's the approach that at least has worked for me.

Obviously, I do my prep for our podcast, reading your LinkedIn recommendations from folks that have worked with you, worked alongside you, and the things they say about you. How did you find your leadership voice? Where did you develop your leadership style? Did any of it have to do with Pat Dye? Right. One of the all time greats. I mean, where did that come from?

I think it's multiple places, actually. I mentioned my grandmother earlier. It started there. She was so wise beyond her years. And I think back on just what that meant. I mean, she would say things and common sense isn't so common when she sees something happen, or she would these little nuggets, right? And she was just being herself. But man, they stuck with me. And then as I got to Auburn, obviously seeing leaders like Pat Dye invest in me and knowing that they cared about me and was able to simplify things so I could be successful, those are principles I picked up for sure during that time period.

And then, of course, over the last 30 years of this journey in biotech and pharma, I've had leaders along the way that have reinforced many of those same principles around being authentic and being transparent with people and making sure they know how much you care. And sometimes it's as easy as just and this is what Pat dive is really good at. Sometimes it's as easy as just slowing down enough to explain the why. We can tell people, hey, here's what I'd like you to go do. But man, when you can connect the why, like, here's the reason and here's why. I think that's an overlooked principle that sometimes you get in the heat of the battle and you get moving too quickly and sometimes you forget to slow down enough just to explain the why. And people connect to that why, right?

Because they play a role in the why. And so I think that element of it are all things that I've picked up not only from football, but also from some of the mentors that I've had in this industry.

And along those lines, I know you take a great deal of satisfaction in being able to fulfillment, I should say not satisfaction, fulfillment and being able to simplify the complex. We live in this world where it's paralysis by analysis. We overthink almost everything, right? Because the pace and rate of change is greater than we've ever seen.

I get it. How do you do that? Again, I wish I had a great silver bullet here's. The reality of it, though. The reality is what I learned for me is that I have to get really comfortable with about 70% to 80% of the information to make a decision. And most people want 100% want overanalyzed. And for me, it was about getting really comfortable with about 70% to 80% of the information and being able to move forward. And so once I get there then for me it's really about being able to take what is it that people actually have control over to move this business objective forward and keeping it that simple. I think it's human nature at times to overcomplicate, to be candid, I think it's just built. It's kind of how we're built.

And so for me it's about just trying to do the opposite. It's about trying to uncomplicate make it as easy as possible for people to go execute and be successful. And if you think about leading a large group of people the more people you get charging the same hill the odds are on your side. So that's the simplicity level that I'm trying to think about and get to it's. How do I get the most amount of people charging the same hill which is that objective? And the only way I can do that is to keep it simple is to keep it here are the two or three things.

Here are the objectives that we're trying to get to over the next three months and it's going to hinge on X, Y and Z and being able to keep it at that level I think is what's allowed some of these large teams to be able to have success.

How do you do that? Cross functionally? If there's pushback from one of the, I don't want to say one of the other silos, but the other side, how do you make that happen?

Cross functionally? Well, I think so if you think about the organization that I lead now it's got marketing market access which is all the payer and trade dynamics. It's got the sales function, it's got the operations team. I mean it's about 214 people right now. And the first thing is being able to align the strategy or the objective across that entire group because the reality is what marketing is doing ties into that, what market access is doing ties into that same objective. What operations is doing is creating some of the tools and resources that allows us those objectives to happen. And so it's really being able to get everything down to a singular objective that entire cross functional team is operating towards and then it's being able to break down the simple execution in each of those departments that contribute to that objective.

And so that's an area though that sounds easier than it is to actually do right? And not to mention sometimes those change from quarter to quarter and sometimes they're not always consistent. Sometimes you got to be able to call an audible and you need to be able to learn from what's happened so far in the year and be able to make some changes moving forward in the year. And sometimes those areas, those objectives, those simplified execution areas, sometimes they change and you've got to be nimble enough to be able to make some of those moves.

And speaking of nimble, as you lead.

Leaders.

How do you go about identifying when it's time to give them a little bit of space, right, to let them find their way, to let them make their mistakes or achieve their level of success on their own? And when do you identify the time to step in and lean in and then figure out, am I going to coach them here? Am I going to mentor them here?

Yeah, it's a situational kind of question you're asking there. But it's so relevant and it's so true. I'm big into empowerment. I want people to be able to I'm going to hire them for a reason. I hire them because they're good at what they're doing. The worst thing I can do is get in their way. Right, but it happens all the time.

Not you, but in leadership, it happens all the time.

Yeah, of course it does. Yeah, exactly. And so I think part of it is being able to stay out of their way. And there's a space in there that brings forward one of the things that I try to live by, which is a servant leadership kind of approach, really, which is removing obstacles. And so for me, it's about empowering them to do their job and making sure that I am doing my part to remove obstacles out of their way so that they can be successful in what I hired them to do. As long as that progression is happening, the worst thing I could do is get in the way. If that progression is not happening, well, then it's an opportunity to sit down and find out why. And there may be things in there, maybe there's other obstacles that I can help with.

There may be things that they need to develop to be able to be more successful. But that's kind of that sweet spot of where you can start to see, is it working? And are they being successful or not? And are they able to accomplish all the things they're trying to accomplish? Or is there something else here going on? But typically that's a paradigm of time, right? And so it's not the same for everybody, but being able to keep that connection in place so you can identify it when there is an opportunity is, I think, one of the best things that you can do as a leader.

How relevant is this we only grow through discomfort. And even though we talk about removing obstacles, which is our role, but there has to be a time, right, where they have to struggle. They need to struggle. They need to live inside of that struggle and find their way.

No question about it. I mean, the way I talk about, I think where you're going with this is that you have to be able to live with your decisions and even the bad decisions you make, you've got to reach that point where you have to live with the consequences of those decisions. That's the only way you grow and learn. I mean, if you think about most of us, most of what we have learned either in life or in our careers is from the mistakes that we've made. Obviously, there are successes that you learn from that you try to repeat. But most of my biggest learnings have been where I did it wrong and I got it wrong. Obviously, I knew, well, I don't want to do it that way again. Right?

And so to your point, there is a huge value in development, in allowing somebody to make those mistakes, live with those mistakes, learn from those mistakes, and move on. And I think those areas that all of us, or at least in my leadership teams, that we actually talk about this and we actually try to hold each other accountable, that we're not trying to save somebody, if you will, but we allow them to learn from it.

You played a very violent game, right? Very uptempo, very high paced, even though there's time in between plays, it moved very fast. How have you developed the ability how did you as a football player and how have you developed the ability as an executive in the pharma space to keep a level head, to keep an even head, a quiet mind, so to speak, right? To stay above the fray? How did you develop that? What advice would you have for others who are still on that roller coaster ride where they're reacting to things that happen emotionally as opposed to controlling the response and the conversation that goes on inside their head?

Yeah, being quiet is a valuable leadership lesson. I mean, it really is sometimes just shut up and just be quiet.

Seriously.

I mean, I got, you know, we all go through those kind of 360 feedback, you know, things and I'll never forget, you know, as a brand new people leader or second line people leader. One of the pieces of feedback that came back in some of these 360s that you do was people didn't feel comfortable speaking up when I was in the room because they felt like I had already made up my mind and like they didn't have an opportunity to have a different opinion. And so I remember trying to dissect that when I got that feedback. And what I realized, Ed, is that. I was the first person to try to speak up in a room. One, I felt like I had answer, but secondly, I felt like, hey, let's maximize our time.

And so I didn't allow the room to kind of ideate, if you will, or be thought partners. I felt like I already had the answer. And what I learned was be the last person to speak. And sometimes here's the other thing I learned. Sometimes the room would default to me like they were waiting for me. And so what I learned there was just a very simple tool to be able to say, listen folks, I've got an opinion, but I want to hear everybody's opinions first before I share anything, I want to hear what everybody else has to say. And so I learned that, but the value in that was just being quiet and just not being the first person to think that you've got all the answers, but allowing other people to invest in that thought.

And then the other thing I learned at is that you get so much more skin in the game in that decision because so many more people are bought into it automatically.

So great segue into and I hate the fact that we're running out of time here, but collective collaboration, right? Collective creativity as a team, how significant is it? And along those lines with what you just said, how do you not just foster it but sustain it and keep growing it?

Yeah, it's vital, actually, that whole team approach. Think about our sports days, think about that whole team approach. Is it I don't know how else to foster it other than to have a regular cadence to allow it to happen, actually. And so we do our best at trying to structure time with our leaders and our multiple partners within our organization to make sure that we are doing that kind of collective think. I mean, you do it through things like brand planning processes and goals and objectives for the year. And as long as you have a regular cadence of opportunities for that kind of collective group to come together and be a part of that process, I don't know any other way other than to have that commitment to that process and to have those touch points.

And I would even go as far to say as a large organization of mainly salespeople, there's 147 salespeople and they're all across the country and we pull them together once or twice a year. But we even spend time there when we've got that entire team together. We even spend time there talking about and aligning and thinking through things like culture and activities that we want to do to make sure we continue to have the kind of culture that we want. And so it's being able to have those touch points with everybody.

Last question. I promise you referenced it a lot. You and I connected over this our first conversation. Servant mindset. Where where did it come as you reverse engineer career? If you look back on your career over 30 years now, you can really share a lot of wisdom with the younger generation of leaders, right? The emerging leaders of new leaders enroll. Where did the servant mindset really start to resonate with you? Where did that come from and how significant of a role has that played in you being able to build cultures that are worth fighting for?

Yeah, well, I think looking back on this, Ed, it's obviously that servant mindset, that servant leadership kind of approach, those were things that were instilled from my family, from my faith. And so when I started seeing it put into more of a business format, that's when it connected for me, because I was like, man, that take a note of sense to me. It's things like being able to remove obstacles for people. It's being able to treat people the way you would want to be. These are the golden rules. It's servant leadership, right? I mean, that's what it is. And so that's what made the connection for me, is that, man, here's a leadership approach in business that not only connects with how I was raised, but also connects with my faith and connects with the kind of person I want to be.

And so that's where that came from. And so once I uncovered it and discovered the principles of servant leadership, it really made a connection and I've invested it. I'm still a student. I mean, I'm still a student of servant leadership. I've been doing it for a long time. The great thing about leadership and or the really hard thing about leadership is that you never reach the pinnacle, right? It's one of those development things. It's on a development plan, but you never really reach it. You can only thrive and strive for being able to get incrementally better. And anybody that tells me that they've accomplished it, then they're probably on the way down somewhere, right? It just doesn't happen. And so servant leadership is one of those areas for me that is always on my development plan.

I'm always a student of it, and I'm always trying to be able to learn different elements within some of those principles that I can use in my own life.

Mike, we can keep talking forever. I so appreciate you being here today. That is a great bow to put on the podcast in the joy that comes with it, right? Like, the fun that you have doing what you do and knowing that sense of satisfaction that you're doing things the right way for the right reasons.

Yeah. Ed, I appreciate it. Really enjoyed the conversation. Always enjoyed talking with you, Ed, and look forward to future conversations as well.

Absolutely. Thank you so much, Mike.

All right. Thanks, Ed.

All right, you're good. The recording has stopped. That was awesome. Of course I got one thing written down right here. It's like they ask you about how significant it is as a leader when you can learn from those people that you lead.

Right.

And you can learn from that. But man, I appreciate it.

Yeah. No, it was fun. It was fun. Hopefully you're a really good editor, too.

I pay someone for that, so don't worry about that. We know what we're good at. We know we're not good at. I got an editor. I got a person that does the notes. This is it. All I have to do is record the intro and I hand it off and then I stay out of the way.

That's awesome. Well, thanks for the opportunity, Ed. I appreciate it.

Yeah, thank you. And I'm talking to Glenn tomorrow. I'll reach back out to you afterwards. Or I'll just follow Glenn's direction on that.

Perfect.

I'm going to be with one of your friends in Boston, Kate Leahy. I forgot to tell yeah, so we're going out there. I've been coaching her for probably four months now. We're going to go out there for our anniversary and connect with her and Tim and have a dinner and my wife's never been to Boston. She has no idea what she's in for.

Oh, well, it's a beautiful especially this time of year. Honestly, she'll love it.

Yeah, it'll be a blast. All right, Mike, have a great rest of your day.

Thanks, Ed. Bye.