Coachability – The Missing Piece to the Coaching Equation with Jake Weiss

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Now your host, Ed Molitor. Welcome back to another episode of the Athletics at Business podcast. I am your host and CEO of the Molotor Group, Ed Model Tour. We talk so much on this podcast with our amazing guest about becoming a high impact coach. The Value, the How to the Journey what about the other side of the relationship? What about the other side of the relationship that drives the success of a coach and a coachee? Which is exactly why I'm so excited to bring in my good friend Jake Weiss, Ph.D. who is an industrial Organizational psychologist and the President and CEO of Coachability Consultants. Now who are they? They are a management consulting firm focused on maximizing coaching investments.

Think about the amount of money that we pour into coaching practices, effectiveness and cultures by addressing what he terms and I love this, the missing piece of the coaching equation and that is an employee's and leaders coachability. Not just the employees but also the leaders coachability. Jake has a ton of experience inside of this and prior to his current role he served as a Senior Consultant and a Research Lead at Int Flex where he conducted innovative research to inform the development of its Advanced Managerial Coaching Development and Salesforce effectiveness workshops fortune 100 and 500 companies across the health sciences, biopharma and biotech industries. As Jake talks, and we're going to talk about so much as he talks, you're going to feel his passion. He's so passionate about bridging the scientist practitioner gap and bringing best in class evidence based engagements to his clients.

And his current research. So rich in research. His current research focuses on coaching, employee coachability and organizational cultures. He earned his Bachelor of Science degree in Psychology from UCF the University of Central Florida where he played Division 1 soccer for four years. Then he went on to earn his PhD industrial Organizational Psychology specializing in organizational coaching and coachability from DePaul University right here in Chicago, Illinois. And we're going to talk about so much. We're going to talk about why do people push back on being coachable? What is disposition to feedback and why is that so critical to the success in the coaching relationship? What role does humility play on both sides of the equation? Vulnerability? What role does that play?

And then we're also going to talk about authenticity and how your authenticity as a leader empowers you to foster the coachability inside of your team members. So I'm going To get out of the way. Stop talking. Such an amazing conversation. I hope you enjoyed listening to my time with Jake half as much as I enjoyed recording him. Jake, thank you so much for joining us today on the Athletics of Business podcast. I mean, I am absolutely thrilled to have you here and looking forward to the conversation that we're about to dive into.

Yeah, I'm excited. I'm excited to have another great conversation with you and discuss more about coaching, coachability and everything else. So very much looking forward to diving in.

It's funny, I feel like we should have recorded our conversation that we had two days ago that in its in and of itself could have been a podcast and a really good one too.

It could have been, but I. We'll just keep it going here. I know we. We left a lot out of that one, so we'll hit on everything else here. Hey, you.

You have an amazing journey. I mean, you really do. I. I'm just going to kind of step aside here because I really want you to take us through to how you got to this point in your career where you're the president CEO of Coachability Consultants. Explain the work that you have done, what led up to this work, and I'll jump in and just kind of point us in a different direction because there's so much that you have to offer the listener about the significance and the power of coachability.

Yeah, well, I appreciate that. And just to give you some of my backstory, how this all came to be all started when I was back at the University of Central Florida playing soccer down there, trying to figure out exactly what my interest was. I knew I was interested in psychology, but didn't know exactly where I wanted to take it and started to really become more interested in the dynamics of my team. We had individuals from all over the country, all over the world coming together to achieve a common goal. And I was taking an organizational psychology class at the time and just realized how many similarities and commonalities existed between the study of psychology in business as well as what was happening with my team to really understand team dynamics and effectiveness.

So that got me interested in organizational psychology and brought me to DePaul University where I did my PhD in IO Psychology. Initially focused on understanding the power of teams and organizations and how critical they are to drive bottom line success. But ultimately, how do we create a high performing team? What are the characteristics of individuals that lead to the development of a high performing team? What processes exist in high performing teams and how does that drive results? And when I was doing that work, I started to really understand the value of feedback within teams and information sharing, and simultaneously was working for a boutique management consulting company in Chicago called Into Flex, where were building business coaching workshops for leaders within the health sciences space. And a common theme between teams and between leaders coaching and developing their talent was the importance of feedback.

And one of the gaps that existed when we talk about coaching was that the coaching really focused one side of the equation. All of the attention was geared toward the leader and the coach. Are they providing feedback? Is there a coaching model in the organization? But there wasn't really much consideration given to the other side of the equation, to the person engaging in that coaching and taking that coaching and acting on it. And in sports, you always hear about the importance of being coachable because you're receiving coaching all the time. So that really highlighted just a gap for me in the literature and in practice around the importance of feedback, but ultimately the importance of having people ready and able to receive and utilize that feedback.

And that's what prompted the interest in coachability and studying that in organizations and ultimately applying those insights to help maximize coaching practices, coaching cultures, and overall development of employees and leaders within organizational settings.

Was there an aha moment, like, where you realize, holy cow, we're really missing the boat on this. Do you remember something? One specific moment, or. It's kind of a series of events that led up to this?

It was. No, it's a. It's a great question you raised because it really was one moment. And with the Intlex team, were down in Longboat Key in Florida, where were having what we called a design shop. We were building out a new coaching workshop for a client. And as the academic on the team at the time, as the research lead, I was pulling all this research evidence from the management science literature, and were all coming together and brainstorming and building off this session. And that's where there were six of us sitting around a table down there and just kind of realized that all of this research, all this money is really being invested in the leader. We're building. All these workshops just focused on the Leader.

And there's 60 leaders in this company, and there are over 500 employees in this company that report into those leaders. And those leaders are the only ones getting this training. And that's when we really had the aha that was. Imagine if we focused on the other side of that. If we focused on the coachability, what impact would that have? And how could that really help companies maximize their investments? And that was really the aha for I think the whole team and for me specifically to say this is really something that we can run with and really turn into a big kind of business that has great impact and value for organizations.

And I don't want to get into what came first, a chicken or the egg discussion, but you have to pour into your coaching leaders, right? Like you have for coachability even to matter. You have to pour into those coaching leaders. Which is why I think it's phenomenal that when you start to work with organizations, the first person that you give the coachability assessment to is in fact the leader.

Correct.

Is that correct? Let's talk about that a little bit and why that is. Because people might be sitting there thinking, well, okay, I thought were talking about the coachability of the people that the leader is leading.

Right, right.

But there is a significance to why you give that assessment to the coaching leader to begin with.

There is. I think one thing that we often overlook is the fact that we're all coaches, regardless of the level of our role within an organization. Even the CEO of an organization or board members, they're all receiving feedback. They all need to continuously advance their capabilities and make sure that they're ahead of the curve. So coachability matters at every level of an organization, but we often only think it applies to the individual contributor who's receiving the coaching on a day to day. But coachability is about even when you don't have someone who's necessarily overseeing your performance or observing it all the time, are you actively seeking that out? And as you move up the ranks within an organization, it's more incumbent upon you to really drive your own development and own your own performance.

And in doing so, you need to demonstrate coachability and find those insights that aren't readily provided. I know organizations and part of our work is to help companies create the culture where feedback flows in all directions. But it's easier said than done for an individual contributor to give upward feedback. So can we create an environment and can we develop leaders capability and capacity and willingness to find this feedback and ask their teams for feedback that creates a better dynamic? So we do start with the leaders one because it's critical for them to understand their own coachability and how it impacts the individuals they lead. So my own coachability as a leader might impact the environment I create within my team or the dynamics I create within my team with my team members.

So we start there to help leaders understand individually their own coachability, how that manifests and impacts their team Members. But also, whenever we introduce coachability into organizations and want to really embed it within the fabric of the team or the culture, leaders need to set the tone. And that's one way that we can really start. That is, they take the assessment, for example, they start to discuss their own coachability amongst the leadership team. They start to communicate those insights to other employees about the value it has. And it really helps set the tone at the top of the organization that, hey, we're all developing here, we're all getting better. And we're not just. It's not just words. We're actually acting on this. And now we're showing this invisible ways.

And it really helps create a better dynamic within the organization when we start at that level.

And you said something really interesting to back up about a minute, you said something really interesting about the leader's own level of coachability will help determine or influence the environment that they will create to make it, if we want to term it psychologically safe, to make it a more productive environment for the coaches, so to speak. Can you dive into that just a little bit? Because I think that's really interesting.

Right? Yeah. So, for example, some of the factors that we look at with. With our coachability assessment that we talk a lot about with leaders. Humility. So humility is our. The way that we describe it's our willingness to view others as a valuable, incredible source of information. And as leaders, not only does that impact our own development, if I'm open to insights from other individuals that I can use to benefit my performance, my effectiveness, but if I'm not demonstrating and expressing that humility within my team. So if a team member comes and tries to provide upward feedback to me and I shut them down, or I'm only open to feedback from certain individuals on my team, that's going to really alter the dynamic within my team where some members feel like their voices are heard and they matter and others less so.

And that's going to impact not only the dynamic with the leader, but the cohesion, the collaboration amongst the team. Another area that we talk about is our mindset, our growth mindset, for example. And as leaders and anybody we know, it's important to believe we can improve. Now, what we do about that is different, but we need to hold the belief we can improve. But as leaders, do we hold a growth mindset for the individuals on our team? Do we believe they can grow? Because as a leader and as a coach, if I don't believe the people on my team can improve, then what's the value of me coaching them and providing any feedback to them anyway. So helping leaders understand their own coachability is the critical first step. But then how do these different factors project onto your team?

And is that altering the team processes, the team dynamics that you're trying to create, and ultimately the environment, like you mentioned, psychological safety.

So let's say a leader takes the coachability assessment. It's identified that he. He or she may not believe in the ability of one of their coaches or one of the people on their team that they're leading. Then what? Then what happens?

That's a great question. So the first step really is to help them surface that awareness. So where do we. Where do we fall? What are your current thoughts? What are your beliefs? Why do those exist? And how can we mitigate that? How can we navigate that situation? Often what we do, we have a workshop that we've rolled out that we call fostering coachability, which even before leaders take the assessment, we walk through that with them, and we go through a series of kind of reflective activities with them where we define what it means to be highly coachable. So we lay out the behaviors. What does it mean to be highly coachable? Well, it's proactively seeking that feedback, that constructive coaching.

It's acting on that feedback and coaching, and it's also being highly receptive to it and internalizing it, even when you may not agree with the feedback. Feedback initially. So we walk through these different behaviors with them, but we turn the lens onto them and we ask them, are there situations in which you could have benefited from feedback that you didn't seek it out? Are there situations when you receive feedback that might have been valuable to apply that you kind of just let sit in your notes and never applied? And as we go through these exercises and we help leaders think through this, they start to realize that there are many instances where they didn't engage in a highly coachable way yet. It doesn't mean they're not coachable.

And we want them to have that same mindset toward their people, that they may have provided a great nugget of feedback to someone on their team. And that feedback may not have been applied, but it doesn't necessarily mean that person's not coachable because maybe they received feedback from a different source that was even more connected to the goal that person had, or maybe they used their discernment and realized that this feedback wasn't as applicable right now as it would be in a few weeks. So going through this, we start to help leaders understand what it means to be highly coachable, and that we all have different ways of approaching feedback. And just because we're not engaging in all these behaviors on a consistent basis doesn't mean we're not coachable.

And when they think through it at that level and start to reflect that onto their people, they start realizing that they may have misperceptions of the people on their team, and they might think the people on their team are more fixed or can't grow, when in reality, they actually do have that capacity.

It's interesting because I think through some of the coaching relationships that I've had over the years, both in business and in the athletic world, and I think timing is so significant, too. And I think we forget that as leaders. Right? Like, in other words, there is a moment where you absolutely were not coachable. But do I take the time as your coaching leader to think about where you're at? Right. What's going on in your world? What was the timing of that? What was my approach like, what was. What was going on? Which leads me to this question. We talk a lot here about authenticity, and I break authenticity down into honesty, the ability to be honest with yourself, with others, integrity that you do what you say you're going to do when you say you're going to do it.

And then the third one I think is so critical is the vulnerability piece. How much does vulnerability show up in the coachability, both sides of the equation, and that willingness? Because, I mean, I come a little bit older than you, all right. I come from that train of thought or like, do as I say, right? And I mean, not me personally, not, but I come from that. That time when coaches would flat out tell you, just do what I tell you to do, all right? And do it right now. But now we're at this. This point where I think vulnerability is so powerful, as opposed to the old way people looked at it. Powerless. I'm just curious how much that shows up on both sides of the coaching equation with the work that you folks do.

Yeah, it's. It's a key element of. Of all of this. I think it's an underlying feature that's. That's critical for the effectiveness of the coaching relationship, of the coaching dynamic. When we talk about coachability, and it's one of the factors that we also uncover through the assessment is authenticity specifically. And it's about. All about our intention when we are entering feedback conversations. And when we talk about it, for example, for leaders to demonstrate they are also working on their skills, their capabilities, that Demonstrates vulnerability. And that lets the coaches understand that, hey, we're all developing, we're all growing, we're all improving. No one has all the answers. And I think often we. We think that we need to have all of the answers. And that's often why we don't seek feedback, which is what we try to uncover through our work.

Is, what's your intent for seeking feedback? Is the environment in the organization conducive to that? Because there are many organizations where seeking feedback is a demonstration of incompetence or you should have had all the answers. Why are you asking for feedback on this and having that willingness to demonstrate the vulnerability of saying, I don't know, I don't have all the answers and I'm asking you for feedback because I want your insight, I want to get better. Is critical for the coachee, but also for the coach. For coaches to tailor their coaching style, their feedback approach with each unique individual on their team requires the vulnerability to say, I need to ask them all for feedback because I don't know how they best respond. I don't know what motivates them most.

And often as leaders, I believe many people think they need to have those answers. But I think demonstrating that vulnerability and as a leader saying, even when a coachee comes and asks you for feedback, saying, I don't really know, but I know who does know. Just that level of vulnerability, I think is important to build the trust and to build that authenticity even further. So it does shine through in our work a lot.

And I also think it's a great opportunity to say, I don't know, what do you think? And all of a sudden to set the stage for an amazing conversation and collaboration wrapped around that. And like you said, let's go pull somebody else in who we're pretty sure does know. Now here's something that literally just popped in my head. A coachability ceiling. If you're dealing with a leader, regardless if it's C suite leader of leaders, right? Mid level, frontline leader, if there is a ceiling on that person's coachability, where they are able, but they're not willing to do the work, how does that impact the coachability of the rest of the team?

It can definitely stifle the team. I think it really comes down to that where if we have a leader who maybe understands the value of development yet doesn't demonstrate a willingness or a motivation to do so, they're setting a tone within their team. The team will see that they will end up creating a norm that complacency is kind of how we operate here. If the leader sets that tone, it's more difficult for the team to really bring that to life. Now, that's not to say that if there aren't highly coachable individuals on that team, they won't break through some of the environmental barriers to ultimately drive their own growth and demonstrate different behaviors in the leader.

But I think it is really incumbent upon the leader to create the environment that really fosters and elicits that coachability and doesn't tamper that because leaders can have a detrimental impact on their team if they're not demonstrating the behaviors that are critical for driving success within that team organization.

And I'm just going to throw another log on the fire. My support for you, folks, because here's the thing. If you do have that outlier on the team who's able to learn vicariously through the faults of the leader and their coachability ceiling, and they're able to separate themselves and say, that's not the way to do it. I'm willing to do this. And all of a sudden they're sitting inside of this environment that's been created. Your retention of that person staying with your organization is probably pretty low. And it goes back to the argument, right? People don't leave companies, they leave managers and they leave leaders. Have you seen a little bit of that?

We have. We've definitely worked with some individuals that at the individual contributor level, they're very coachable. They're actively soliciting feedback. They want to grow, they want to improve their talking to other business units to learn more about the business, and they're going out of their way to really expand their learnings. And I've seen this firsthand where they're in a team that doesn't really value that, and it really alters the dynamic they have with their team members. It impacts the relationship they have with their leader. And they ultimately seek out opportunities and situations that allow them to bring their coachability to life more. And they want to go to a place where that's valued, where they're in an environment that values that rewards that really seeks that out, because they want to be around people that are always trying to get better as well.

So someone who's not constrained by the environmental surroundings, they might do well for a little while, but then they ultimately will likely seek out situations that allow them to be around those who push them to the next level as well.

Let's go back to. All right, we have a coaching leader who's committed right we have a team that just, it's buying into the coachability and they're just, they're putting in the work. They're, they're willing, they want it, they're seeking out growth, authenticity, trust. In my mind, that all leads to resilience. And you look at all the things that we have grown through over the course of the last three, four years and the ability to be resilient, to accept reality in real time, and to make decisions, how huge is coachability in a team as well as a coaching leader to exponentially build the resilience because of their coachability?

Yeah, it's really key. I mean, it's critical because as you mentioned, we're going through a lot of change constantly. And what worked three years ago, what worked two years ago, what worked last year doesn't work as effectively as what is new and what's going to help us right now drive our business forward. And teams need to be comfortable understanding that they're going to need to pivot their approaches. They'll need to try new strategies. They might be pursuing a certain goal, implementing a certain approach or strategy that won't work. And those teams need to have the resilience to. And the mindset where it's okay to provide one another really constructive insight and feedback during that time and be willing to make a shift and say, this isn't working right now. What can we do differently? How can we innovate on this?

How can we be more effective? Because that's what enables performance during changing times and enables us to be resilient and overcome barriers. We see teams with lower levels of resilience that might actually stay with a task or a strategy too long rather than trying to pivot. And that's really what coachability is all about, is can we take a certain strategy to the limit? And when we need to change that as a team, we can change that. We're willing to make that adjustment even if it's not the easiest thing to do, because that's what we need to in order to drive our success. So I think it is a critical. Coachability is critical for resilience.

That's another key element that we work on with teams, leaders and employees that we're implementing coachability with is understanding how to be resilient in the face of constructive feedback situations, but also during times of change and feedback. And information sharing is a key element that enables quick change and enables us to be even more effective when we do face challenges or roadblocks.

How Significant is coachability in terms of increasing an individual, any team's creativity. In other words, the ability to reframe novel solutions so they can take something where a lot of folks will be like, those are really crappy circumstances. I don't know what we're going to do with that and reframe it in one of opportunity and growth. Where does coachability come into that to increase that level of creativity?

Yeah, and I think a lot of it too happens at the team climate or the cultural level within an organization. When you have people who are open to new ideas, who are willing to share and you create that psychological safety, I think that's a key element that coachability fits nicely into where we can create psychological safety because we're open to dissenting viewpoints, we're open to half baked or kind of out of the box ideas and that enables creativity. But we need a team of people that are willing to kind of bounce these ideas around that are willing to share these. And that's again, that vulnerability coming to light is, hey, this is a pretty out there idea, but I'm going to put it in front of you all and I hope you don't think differently about me.

But I think this could really impact our performance and I think that willingness to share those ideas is a critical piece. But ultimately where you see the creativity turn to innovation is when it's put into action. And I think that's the key element of coachability, that it's great to talk about these things and have these creative ideas, but are we willing to try a new idea and know that it might not go according to plan, but that we're going to learn from this and this might go well and it might really elevate where we're headed?

So I think it does play into it and I think the environment you create due to the coachability that's present in the team really enables that creativity to come to life and ultimately turn to the innovation that companies want to see so they can continue to advance what they're doing and really create those competitive advantages.

Before we get to some of the results that you've experienced and you've seen as organizations increase and individual increase their level of coachability, I want to go to the dark side for a second. If it works, which it does, right, and people know it works, which they do, why in God's name do they push back? What have been some of the reasons you've seen people push back on the significance of being coachable?

I think a big piece of it is that initial resistance to change that I'm going to need to do something differently. And coachability at its heart is about a willingness to change. I mean, you want new feedback, you want new coaching, because you're going to get insights that require change. And I think the pushback we often receive is due to the lack of willingness or desire to do something differently, to change, to create a new dynamic with team members. Because what I'm doing has been working for a while, so why should I change that? And that's often the resistance we face, whether it's at the individual contributor level that, hey, I'm a high performer, why should I do things differently? And the reframe of that is, well, are you as great as you could be? Is there room to grow?

But at every level, I think we run into some of those roadblocks of people being open to changing and knowing that coachability is a key element that really accelerates that change, I think is something that might not resonate with some who are more comfortable staying in the lane they've been in for a while.

High performer, why should I change? You make an amazing point with the reframe, they still resist. And as the. As the rest of the team starts to elevate their coachability and they stay stagnant. Excuse me. Or become bitter and actually digress. Okay, how does that affect the team's output and what have you. I mean, what have you seen happen? Like, what are some of the things that you've seen happen when that's been the situation?

We've seen it just create less than ideal dynamics within the team where you have someone who's a high performer who others look to. Often some of those individuals are influential within the team, and it's important they. They don't start to kind of demonstrate counterproductive behaviors because they can pull the rest of the team down with them, especially if they do have an influence in that team. And that's something that we've seen where the high performer, they're the ones driving results.

The whole team looks up to them, and then the rest of the team continues to improve and that person becomes toxic, a toxic member of the team, because they're unhappy with the progression of the rest of the individuals because that kind of lessens their standing and it creates a toxic dynamic where we've seen those type of individuals actually move out of the team. And it's obvious.

Which isn't so bad.

No, it's not so bad. It's not ideal. It's not bad either. If you have someone that's toxic and weighing the team down. But I think you do sometimes see the high performers initially become resistant. And when you do see them really buy into it, that's when there's a great impact because they're influential, they're performing, they're elevating their performance even higher. And they are setting a tone within the team. They're a champion, a coachability champion within the team that others look to not only for performance but because they're doing it the right way also.

So resistance to change is one reason you see pushback. What else have you seen?

I think some of it too is that with coachability, just the word itself sometimes can put people off because the initial reaction for some is, are you telling me I'm not coachable?

And that's, there you go. That's the world we live in right now.

Right, Right. So that's a key piece of resistance that we've dealt with that we work to overcome. And part of it is reframing what we do as just another set of tools, another set of strategies that these individuals can use to really accelerate where they're going. And we try to reframe it as something that's not, we're not doing this to you, but this is something that's valuable for you and we're doing it with.

It's not, it's like we talked about, it's not a weapon, it's a tool.

Exactly.

Right. Something funny just popped in my head here. Coaching my 10 year old daughter in basketball and she's a competitor, she has her moments where she gets in her head and it's, she's pretty set in her ways. And one day I grabbed her during a game and I said something said, I said, you need to make up your mind right now if you're going to be coachable. Okay. Now granted, I know I just said my 10 year old daughter, but okay, fifth grader, she is a competitor, she needs to be coachable.

Right?

All children need to be coachable. All adults need to be coachable. Anyways, I said, you need to be coachable today. She goes, I am. I said, okay. I, you know, I said, emma, get in for Maddie, sit down. And I said, because I just realized that I, it was a very vague word to her at that point, like. And I said, well, what is, what do you, why do you think you're coachable? And she kind of hemmed and hawed a little bit and I realized like sometimes and you just made me think of this when you said the word itself, okay, maybe you are coachable to an extent, but there's a gap or there's room for growth. Like, are you comfortable? Like, how do you deal with that?

Like, when maybe someone is coachable, maybe they are coachable, but not to the extent that they're capable of. That would just absolutely raise the level of their performance.

And that. That's really a key element of. Of what we do. And we. We like to refrain from talking about people as coachable or not, because that was part of our initial research, was to understand. Because to your point, you always hear people labeled this person's coachable, this person's not. And we want to.

So that was a fail for. For dad right there, right? That was a fail for. For coach.

No, no, you're. You're. You're on. You're with the extent of the coachability, and that's what we focus on, is it all operates on a continuum where we all deviate, say from 0 to 100 on where we fall on coachability. It's about to what level can we elevate that allows us to get to our goals? And inherently, we found that through the research we've conducted that some of us just are dispositionally more geared toward operating in a more coachable way. We might have a greater relationship with feedback. And in the academic terms, we'd call that feedback orientation, that we have greater affect towards feedback, where some of us just naturally don't have that. But because coachability shows up into trainable, measurable, observable skills and behaviors, we can train and elevate those to highly coachable levels.

We can help connect people's goals to the value of operating in a coachable way. How will operating in this way help you achieve your goals? That's the why. The what is, how do we develop those skills to a highly coachable level that allow you to operate in a highly coachable way frequently and effectively to drive toward that goal of yours?

Yeah, I love that. I love that disposition of feedback. Before I lose this thought, is that influenced by your experiences growing up, your experiences as a young adult, your. The circumstances that you've been through, some of the highs and lows? Is that where the disposition and the influences in your life, whether they be moments, whether they be people, whether. Whatever it may be, is that where the disposition to feedback? That's the first part of the question. Okay, I'm gonna load it up for you here.

All right?

And actually, this might not even be a question, because I think that's why One of the reasons it is so critical to get to know your people and to connect with your people, because that disposition of feedback, if you can crack that code to how they want to receive it, when they want to receive it, in what manner they want to receive it, you're going to have the opportunity as a coaching leader to put them in better position to be successful. So I apologize, that was long winded. But can you talk into that though, like where that disposition to feedback comes from and what we can do to help increase the folks that we lead their coachability.

Right. So some of it is trait based and some of it is experience experiential and something that we learn through experiences. So when we look at some of the traits, when you think of the big five personality characteristics and other individual differences that we all as humans just vary on, there are different dispositions to wanting feedback just naturally, but then through experiences that shapes us and having poor feedback experiences, whether that's as a child, whether that's going through high school and college, or in organizations that'll influence our willingness and ability to operate in a coachable way. So, for example, we work with many individuals who have come from previous organizations where feedback was not something that was valued nor was it something that was expected to provide or receive.

And when it was provided, when you heard the word feedback, it was because something wasn't going well, it's because you were doing poorly. And anytime they sought it out, they should have had the answers to it. It wasn't valued. And those experiences really impacted their willingness in their new organization to take feedback because they had such a negative connotation attached to it due to their previous experiences. So it is, to your point, kind of cracking that code and breaking it down and helping to set the tone and set the standard for what feedback means. When we talk about feedback, we say it's information, that's all it is. Now you can attach different terms in front of it. I know there. There was a recent study in 2022 that came out of Harvard that looked at four different types of feedback.

Positive, constructive, neutral and negative. When we talk about feedback, we talk about information and then we talk about what type of information are you seeking. Is it positive that makes you feel good? Is it constructive that actually moves the needle in terms of performance? Is it negative that's geared toward what you're not doing well and is delivered in a less than ideal tone, or is it neutral? It's just an observation. But helping people first understand what feedback is critical for Changing the relationship they hold with it when they know it's something that's beneficial, that it's positive, that it's constructive, it's just to help you get better. It's not because you're not doing well. It's because there's growth that can be achieved. I think that helps to change that dynamic, but then ultimately to really alter and improve and elevate the coachability.

After you've kind of laid the foundation of what feedback is and isn't and that it is a positive thing, then we can start developing those skills to elevate coachability. So instead of someone coming to you and saying, hey, Ed, what can I do to better? What can I do to be more effective? That doesn't really give you much to go on as a feedback provider. But can I ask in a highly targeted way that's tied to a specific skill that gives you context on what I've been doing around this skill, so you know, what I've been doing, what I haven't been doing, what's been working, what hasn't, and gives you much greater insight to then provide me actionable feedback on. So it's a long winded answer, but I think it is an inherent dispositional component. There is an experiential component.

And once we can lay the foundation of what feedback truly is, we can start to break down some of those experiences and then equip people with the skills and strategies they need to actually operate in a highly coachable way on a consistent basis.

And to sum that up, it is not only doable, it is common for someone to improve their disposition to feedback over time.

It is. We've seen people grow in their not only their willingness and ability to seek feedback, but to receive it. My mentor always says we're all coachable until we disagree. And that's the type of feedback we want people to be open to is the feedback that's nitpicky, that may not initially resonate, but has impact. And we've seen improvements in those behaviors over time through really focusing on coachability with them.

All right, so I got a question for you, and I have not asked you this one yet in any of our conversations. Personal ownership of your coachability. Right. So you're coachable. You open up to the feedback, you receive the feedback. Where does taking action on the feedback you receive figure into the coachability equation?

It's one of the most critical components of it. We talk a lot about seeking it. We talk a lot about receiving it. Receiving it is kind of that. That bridge between getting the information and applying it. But often where we fall short after we have a great conversation is taking those insights and putting them into action. And I often throw myself under the bus here, where I'll have a great conversation. This didn't happen too long ago, unfortunately. And I'm nodding my head, I'm writing this all down on the piece of paper next to me.

Right.

And six, nine weeks passed, and all that feedback, all that information is still sitting right next to me right now.

On this piece of paper. Yeah.

So applying it is where you see the results. I think a lot of time we think we had a great coaching conversation because we had this rich discussion. We shared a lot of insights. The true value of that is the output when we apply it is I got great insight, but what's the impact on my growth? What's the impact on my performance? So without applying it, we won't see the benefits from that coaching conversation or from the coaching insights we receive.

Are you okay with sharing with us one or two ways you help people open up to receiving feedback in the coaching relationship?

Yeah. So the first approach really is to elevate their awareness of some of the tendencies, some of those contributors or derailers that are influencing their willingness to hear feedback from different sources. And we use our assessment to do that. But we often frame that as a look in the mirror. They're often unconscious tendencies that we're not aware of, that we might be really open to feedback from certain people and very closed off from others. And we might be aware of that. We may not be. But first, bringing that to light and elevating that awareness is the first step to sustainable behavioral change or development. So through whether it's an assessment, whether it's through a conversation where we're guiding through deep reflective questions to help people understand what might be influencing their behaviors. That's typically the first step.

The next, in terms of helping them is providing them and equipping them with strategies to better not only receive, but internalize and then discern the value of that feedback. So, for example, a lot of resistance typically arises during feedback conversations because what the feedback provider is saying is not what the recipient is hearing or speaking two different languages. Right. So really helping the receiver with an approach to paraphrase that feedback, to communicate what they're hearing, to really probe deeper to get the insights that allow them to take action on that. And then one of the things, we call that our accept approach, but we talk about before you act on it. If you're Accepting it, you have to reflect. So it's one thing to hear the feedback, but then reflect on that. What did you hear? Have you heard this feedback before?

Is this something that is tied to your goals and how can you take action on it? So helping people one hear that feedback in a more digestible way without kind of raising these defenses. Because again, the defenses come up often when we don't understand the message. So can we better understand the message? Can we hold back on our reaction and then can we look at the feedback a day later objectively so when we reflect on it doesn't have to be immediately, but take a break, take a couple hours, take a day, come back and look at it. Because the emotional charge of that conversation typically dissipates after some time, which allows us a clearer head when we look at the feedback and then we can really evaluate it more objectively and accurately to say, what did I hear? Is this accurate?

And how can I then apply that?

How significant is it? And do you encourage, as I'm sitting here taking notes to journalists, right, like as you grow to track it, you know, as you accept the feedback, then you reflect on it, then you act on it and then, and I hate to use the word track your results because people start thinking, oh God, this has worked. No, but actually just write down what's happening when you reflect in a certain way, when you act in a certain way, what was the source of that feedback? How important is that?

It's critical. And I think the power of reflection is often overlooked or seen as something that's less important than other aspects of our performance. But in reality it really allows us to take a step back and look at things with a clearer view and it allows us to ultimately start to self coach. The more we self reflect, the more we can start to identify things we're doing well that we want to continue. And if we're honest with ourselves, we can start to really see some of those opportunities, poke their heads out and see those opportunities that would benefit us if we could really activate or engage those areas even further. So reflection is really beneficial to help with the self coaching aspect.

But at the same time, to your point about whether we call it tracking or just really assessing our progress, however we frame it's motivating for us if we can see how we're advancing and how we're improving in certain areas and reflection allows us our own self analysis essentially that if I know I'm improving, it's going to motivate me to continue doing that. Moving forward. So it serves as a self coaching tool as well as a motivational tool for ourselves.

And the thing about it is at some point it becomes a way of life, right? It just becomes so ingrained and talk about being embedded in it becomes so ingrained in who you are that it just becomes a way of life. And it speaks to what we talk about all the time is the fact that self awareness is the competitive advantage. And when you can get to that place that is, it's super powerful, right?

It really does differentiate different individuals. Those who are really engaging in self reflection and those who are kind of documenting how they're progressing. It allows them to accelerate where they're going. It. It just allows them to be more effective. To your point, self awareness is something that we don't all have yet many of us think we do have. And it is something that really separates those who I think are able to continue moving the needle on their own versus those who aren't.

And we don't know what we don't know. Right. But that's the fun part of the journey. When you really start figuring out just when you thought you knew it really don't and just keep growing. But speaking of which, I can't stand the fact that we're out of time, but I have a feeling that we have so much more to talk about. We'd love to have you back on here soon down the road and pick up that conversation. I know we'll have many conversations before then, but I really would love for you to talk about your coachability at work certification program because I think that's so powerful that you folks have put this together. And so just fill the listener in on that and where they can find out more about that as well as find out more about Jake and coachability consultants.

Awesome. No, I appreciate it. And so with our coachability at work certification program, we've developed a scientifically validated coachability assessment, which is the first and only out there that specifically looks at individuals coachability and it uncovers their baseline. Coachability breaks it down on 10 scientifically validated factors. And to your point about self awareness, that's the first step to really enhance, enhancing and accelerating behavioral changes having awareness. And through our certification, we've started to open up that assessment beyond our own use. We use that with all of our clients across health sciences, across the sports arena, but we've seen the power of that. We have data on the impact that's had and we want to open that up and allow others to bring value to their clients through coachability.

So with our certification program, we have three separate levels and we're equipping executive coaches, leadership development firms, consultants and consulting firms to leverage our coachability assessment within their work. Whether that's to better understand their coachee prior to entering a coaching engagement so they understand their tendencies and can better coach them, it provides a tool they can use throughout that engagement. Or if a company wants to accelerate the development of a talent bench and really build the next generation of leaders. Our data indicates coachability is a strong driver of promotability. So leveraging an assessment tool that really elevates awareness for high performers, for emerging leaders, for current leaders, is a critical first step for helping them accelerate and elevate their growth.

So our certification has those three levels where the first one is all about the individual coachability assessment, equipping coaches, consultants and firms to use that our silver level. We then introduce our team Coachability report that allows teams and leaders to really see the coachability landscape within their team and really determine some core drivers and derailers of their team effectiveness that they can harness even further or activate more of. And then our gold level is where we then layer on the individual assessment, the team coachability report, and our skills development training workshops that we've rolled out across many organizations to really take the coachability skills and take that awareness to a highly coachable level.

And that's what we're implementing across many organizations with L and D teams, HR teams, but really creating subject matter experts in coachability as in as many industries and as many countries as we can.

That's awesome. So where can we find this? Where, where can the listener find more about this? The website, your social media.

A lot of this information lives on our website, coachabilityconsultants.com you can find a lot about our services and offerings as well as our certification program on LinkedIn. You can find my personal profile on there as well as coachability Consultants profile where we're very active in posting about our certification as well as sharing insights related to coachability we think are important for the audience. And that's really where you can find us. And on our website we have a small link where you can schedule the call. If you're interested in learning more about certification, we're happy to hop on and talk more with people about that so they can understand not only the essence of the program, but also how they can start to integrate the assessment and our different tools within their practice even before they enter into the program.

Jake, keep doing amazing work this was an absolute blast. I appreciate you. I really appreciate all the work that you're doing. Your journey is amazing. It's both amazing and fascinating. And we have to have you back in because you know exactly why I'm. There's a story that I want to talk about that we never got to, so we'll go over that next time. But thank you. I cannot thank you enough. I appreciate it. And. And take good care.

I appreciate you, Ed. It's great to be with you. I look forward to continuing the conversation and hopefully being back here soon.

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