Coachability in the Workplace, with Pat Klingler

Welcome to the Athletics of Business, a podcast about how the traits and behaviors of elite athletes and remarkable business leaders frequently intersect. The real stories and hard lessons to help you level up your leadership and performance. Now your host, Ed Molitor.

Welcome back to another episode of the Athletics of Business podcast. I am your host and CEO of the Molitor Group, Ed Molitor. Man, am I fired up. To bring you today's special guest, Pat Klingler. Now, Pat is the vice president of Business development for Direct Biologics. But I want to set that off to the side for just a second because I want to give you a background of Pat and I and how far back we go and why I am so fired up to have Pat on the Athletics of Business podcast today. Now, Pat and I first met in 1992 when I was a grad assistant at Lewis University Division 2 School in Romeoville, Illinois. I was a graduate assistant for the men's basketball program. And right next to Romeo Bell is Joliet, where Pat was completely doing a complete rebuild job.

And I don't know if you'd call it a rebuild because the previous 10 years leading up to Pat taking over JJC's record was 86 and 207. Now that's a little too a lot. 86 and 207 in Pat's first three years at JJC. Now think about this. His first three years they went 93 and 25 including a national championship. So his first year they were 25 and 11, they were fifth in the country, they were 30 and 6, finished fourth in the country. And then they were 28 and 8 where they obviously I just mentioned they won the national championship. So it took him three years to surpass the previous 10 year win total by seven. Now that wasn't the most impressive thing he did.

What it was the culture he built and the fact that he took it from a dormant program that just really was insignificant and didn't really matter to a place of prominence that to this day is really a basketball comes to mind when you mentioned JJC and when we talk about the Athletics of Business mindset, right, that leadership mindset, that the traits and behaviors of high performing teams and elite athletes are key to your success in business. Pat lives and breathes that today as the vice president Business development for Direct Biologics. Now what does Direct Biologics do? Well, they are a market leading innovator and science based biologics. Manufacturer of regenerative medical products, including a robust line of biologic products. Direct Biologics was created to expand the science of cutting edge biologic technologies.

Now, had you told me back in the early 90s, when Pat and I were sitting in his coach's office or sitting in a bar ex and on a cocktail napkins and talking about plays, talking about quick hitters, and more importantly, talking about how to recruit the best talent, the best kids, and get them to fit in and buy into your program, that in the year 2019 that we'd be sitting here talking about this today, I would have told you were probably nuts and got dropped on your head too many times as a child. But what a conversation we have. Pat and I talk often now, and every single time, it's. It's a treat. And we probably repeat ourselves and repeat the stories often, but we still have a lot of fun. And here's the thing.

As I've gotten to know Pat in his business career, okay, over the past couple of decades, the same things that make his team successful in the business world are the exact same things that he did with his college basketball teams, right? He creates a vision. He lays it out there, what it's going to take to be successful. And he's definitely not guilty of paralysis by analysis because he tries to simplify the process and set realistic goals. Goals that will stretch you and get you outside your comfort zone, yet they're realistic to reach, right? Either you're going to do it and you're going to be a part of this, you're going to be a part of the solution, or you just. Just not going to be a part of this at all, okay? So you got to figure it out.

You can't really sit on the fence. But here's the thing. He gets the buy in from his people and they run with it. It's amazing because when you talk about a team being a direct reflection of their head coach is something that I've always said, right? That's what Pat's basketball teams were, okay? And that's what his business teams are. They just figure out a way to get it done. And they have. No matter how hard they have to work, right? No matter how much adversity or struggle they grow through, they just find a way to have fun doing it, too. And on this podcast, we're going to talk about a lot of cool things. And one of the things that Pat talks about early and often is opportunity.

And he talks about how it doesn't matter what others say or think, if you can see the opportunity, which was really the reason he took the job at jjc. Alright. But it's helped him immensely in the business world. The other thing that we're going to talk about is the significance of transparency and building that trust you need from your teams. And it goes back to what I just said. There's no BS about Pat. Like, he's going to tell you like it is, but Pat's also going to put his arm around you and show the empathy and let you know that he's there and not just when it's cool to be there and not just when he needs you, but he is always there. I love sitting with Pat in person when talking about his former players. And you watch his eyes light up, right?

You listen to the pace of his. His voice quicken and he gets excited and that's just the way he is. He's very genuine when it comes to relationships. And that's one of the things that he'll talk about on this podcast and his commitment and his desire to develop people and to develop those relationships. And we'll talk about one of the things he looked for in recruits was how competitive are they? And he does that with new hires. How competitive is new hire? And he says that you don't simply have to be the best. It requires determination, it requires courage, and it requires competitiveness. And finally, he's going to leave you and he's going to talk a lot about two words that will keep coming up, and that's passion and accountability. Enjoy my conversation with Pat Klinglan.

Pat, thank you so much for joining us on the Athletics of Business podcast. Now, we've called each other a lot of things over the years, but today. Do you want me to call you Pat? Do you want me to call you coach? How should we do this?

Eddie, you're the man. You can call me anything you want, because I promise I'm not going to call you. Some of the things I did before,

Well, that was all right. I always put a smile on my face. But, hey, listen, we've known each other a long time and I filled everybody in on the introduction about your incredible career path, both coaching and in your professional career. But can you take us through right now? Vice President of Business Development for Direct Biologics. Can you walk us through exactly what you're doing and all the amazing work and the team that you're building and how it all relates back to everything you've done over the course of your career?

Well, we've got an interesting product, we're in an interesting space in medical that we call regenerative medicine. And you Know, we've, we. I just saw an advertisement a couple of days ago that this is the way we practice medicine the last hundred years, and had a picture of a scalpel, and here's how we're going to practice medicine for the next 50 years. And it had a syringe. And the world of regenerative medicine is one of the hottest topics right now of doing things with your body that will regenerate tissue, cartilage, reverse the damage on organs. You know, regenerative medicine, just a very broad topic. Everything from hair loss, which our product is very effective at treating, to degenerative joint disease, just on and on, degenerative spine disease.

So our product is very versatile and in the fact a lot of people are familiar with the term stem cells right now, and our product is kind of the next generation. It's actually a derivative of a mesochymal stem cell. And the product is called exosomes. And probably that's a big word coming from a junior college basketball guy. But exosomes are a hot topic right now, and we're seeing this used in just a wide variety of areas. It's an exciting area.

Well, first of all, you must have read my mind as you're using those big words, but it's really fascinating to me, and I've always been curious, and you and I have talked a little bit about this over the past few months, but how did you come about getting in contact with this specific treatment? And how all of a sudden did you get involved in, hey, this is the next venture. This is the next project that I want to work on, and here's why. I think it's going to be massively successful.

Well, about 10 years ago, I was having dinner in. In Denver, Colorado with a spine surgeon that I have a lot of respect for, and he's a very entrepreneurial guy. And we finished dinner, we're talking, and I was. I was working for Johnson and Johnson Depew spying at the time, running the West Mountain States. And he said to me, he said, pat, you're still a young guy, and what do you. What are you going to do the rest of your career? You're going to spend your career in, you know, spine hardware and metal implants. And. And I said, well, it looks like I'm here. What?

He said, well, if you want to spend the rest of your career in medical, I would suggest you get into the biologic side of this industry because, you know, it's very barbaric what we do, sticking metal inside people. And he said, I'm almost embarrassed to be such a large player in this industry because it's a shame that we're not farther advanced than we are. And he's a guy that's led a bunch of research in the regenerative medicine and treating people differently. So I took a hard look at that. And not long after that, an opportunity came about. I took an executive vice president job at a biologic company out of Montana called Bacterin International. And that kind of really was the first step into this industry. And not long after that, I saw that regenerative medicine was going to be the next hot topic.

And we kind of got on the front edge of this. And my partner out of. One of my partners out of St. Louis, he and I did a private label business a few years ago with an amniotic tissue, and that was our entry into this industry. But it's growing fast, it's exciting, it's continuing, and it's becoming much more accepted, and we're doing more studies all the time, so it's a great place to be.

So you used a word that used a lot in our conversations. Opportunity. And I remember something that you told me one time. And it doesn't matter what others see, and forgive me if I don't get this exactly correct, but it doesn't matter what others see as long as you can see the opportunity. And are you pretty intentional with looking for those opportunities or do those more present themselves to you?

You know, I think opportunities present themselves every day. And it's just having an open mind and having the time to focus on those opportunities for just a few minutes, see if it's a fit for you. And you know that old phrase, have a hunch, bet a bunch. You know, that's so true. And I can't tell you how many opportunities that I've looked at, you know, going clear back to Joliet Junior College, when I was the happiest guy in the world, when I got that job and nobody else in the world wanted it. And, you know, I'll tell you a funny story about that, Eddie. Years later, I'm in medical and. And Bob Knight was coaching it at Texas Tech, and I spent an evening with him out in Lubbock, Texas. And it was a day where I had a very bad day in orthopedics.

I managed West Texas for an orthopedic company, and I lost a rep, and I had to get rid of a rep on the same day. So I lost two thirds of my sales force in that area in one day and I'm at dinner with coach and. And he asked, what's going on in your world? What? Seems like something's bothering you. I told him. And he made a comment about how we hire people in the industry. And he made a comment I'll never forget. It's when you do things right, it makes it look easy and everyone thinks they can do it. And when the right opportunity comes a about and it's something that you can see, it doesn't matter what other people think because it'll be easy for you if it's a vision that you have.

It's tough when somebody tries to talk you into doing something that you don't think feels quite right.

Well, and that's when you got to trust your. Your gut, your intuition, whatever you want to call it. Which I think that's something going back to your coaching days that you've always been very good at. Where did that come from?

Well, I think it, you know, it's knowing how lucky you are when you get an opportunity. I mean, I felt like the most fortunate guy in the world when I got the Joliet Junior College job. And the funny thing about that, Eddie, is when I applied for the job and got the job, there were three athletes. And the talent pool was me, an older gentleman that had never had a winning season and high school basketball, and a young guy without a college degree. So that was. That was the three, you know, the three finalists. And four years later, there were 200 and some applicants for the same job. And it was, you know, after. After we won some games, won a national championship, people thought it was a good job. Well, it was the same job.

Right.

There was nothing different. And in the basketball world, especially in junior college basketball, how could you possibly be in a better spot than Joliet, you know, for the talent pool around that area and the blue collar support, the people, they were starving for a winter. And just it's. It's like so many things is it became a losing culture. People didn't expect it anymore. And, you know, one of my proudest moments is they. They're still winning, you know, and the people there, they expect, you know, it's been 30, 40 years of winning now. And Joe Kuhn stepped in there and has kept that thing going. And everyone around there expects Joliet to be good, right?

Absolutely. Yep. Joe's done. Joe. Joe did a tremendous, I mean, great guy. Now I want to back up. It was one of the things, and I mean this sincerely, one of the things that I always admired about you. And one of the reasons I loved recruiting your players was because you had this ability to recruit guys where others may not have seen the talent in them. Right. And you had the ability to pull that out of them. How much does that relate to, in align with what you're doing at Direct Biologics now as you ramp up your sales force?

Oh, I think it's, that's what I tell people. It's why I don't miss coaching anymore because that's the same thing, you know, when I sit down and talk to someone that we're either going to hire or we're going to partner with or, you know, when we put this thing together with your partners, I mean, you've got to be able to figure out in a hurry, you know, are they sincere, are they committed, can you trust them? Those things that you try to figure out that you've done so many times sitting in a living room of some, you know, 18 year old kids house, you've got a short period of time to read them. And you know, mistakes in basketball, mistakes cost you wins. In business, mistakes cost you a lot of money.

You know, if I hire the wrong person, you know, I know that's probably $200,000 that I'm just throwing away. It's a year that you're going to spend on somebody you shouldn't have hired and then another year getting someone else up to speed, you know, to replace that person. So mistakes are costly. And you know, one of my very few talents and gifts has been reading people and finding those right people and getting to their core in a hurry. Do they want to do this? You know, are they as committed as you and I? You know, I don't expect everyone, you know, when you're the head coach, you got to remember that, you know, it's still a game. And these players, you chose this as your career. They chose it. It's a game to them. There's a big difference between a career and a game.

And I know that I took it, but I wanted to find as many guys that were as close to the same commitment level that I had. And if you do that, you're going to be pretty good.

So. And I don't want to get ahead of myself here because I have about three questions at the front of my mind. But as you build Direct Biologics and going back to how you found the players that were the right fit for your culture, okay. And the right fit for your coaching style and the right Fit for your vision. And you do that with Direct Biologics. How to, how do you, in that short window of opportunity you have when you meet with people, whether it's people that you want to partner with or people that you want to hire, whatever. And you can speak to your new CEO for Direct Biologics if you want to. But how do you get to that answer? Like, how do you figure out if they're the right fit, if they're the right person?

You know, do they have those traits and execute the behaviors that you're looking for?

Well, it's a lot of, you know, you listen a lot, you ask questions. You, you kind of let, if you're, if you let people, they'll, they'll reveal everything about them. And it's just listening and picking up those things. It's hard to fake passion. There's. My two favorite words in the English language are passion and accountability. And those are two things. If you just pay attention, both those things will reveal themselves. And without passion and accountability, it's hard to be good at anything.

It's funny you say that like those two things will reveal themselves. And I was always, when I was in the recruiting industry for seven and a half years and in all the conversations I had, I still would be so blown away at how folks weren't smart enough to at least make themselves sound accountable. Right.

Yeah. Hard to fake it.

Which, that's the whole key, though. It's hard to fake it. So, so talk a little bit about what you're doing right now. Direct Biologics, in terms of your bill, you know, how you're building it up, your growth, who the players are, you know, who you have in place.

Well, we're right now building out a national sales force. We have about 60 employees and we're just in a rapid growth mode. We hired a VP of sales, actually is kind of in your neighborhood. He's in the. He was a Division 1 college baseball player, played at University of Illinois. Has an extensive background in sales management. This guy's named Jeff Schultz. And Schultz is the guy that wakes up every morning, just lives this, you know, he's a guy that can, you know, I have a phrase in basketball. I always said it's, you know, there's nothing more unequal than the equal treatment of unequals. And being able to coach everyone different is something that I always thought I tried to do a good job of.

I mean, if you've got a kid that's, you know, and you could, you know, his, the most he could give you was six minutes a game. You know, he wasn't a first tier player, but how do you get that guy to give you the best six minutes he can give you and another guy that you know can give you 38 minutes? You know, you coach differently. And Jeff Schultz is one of these guys that, you know, he'll go from dealing with a 24 year old girl right out of college, new in the industry, to a phone call. The next phone call is to a guy that's 55 years old, that's been in the industry for 30 years, but he's managing those types of people. And the guy's great. I mean, he's.

I had my first phone call with him Yesterday morning at 5:15 and my last phone call the day before was it like 11:30 midnight, you know, and he puts a ton of work in. He's a passionate guy and he just wears it. I mean, I, you met Jeff and you can see that in two minutes.

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I love that though. You know, you talk about wakes up every morning and just lives. Can you give us that quote again?

There's nothing more unequal than equal treatment of unequals. And if you think about that, you know, you can't, you know, when somebody says you treat everyone equal, that's not fair and that's not right. Everyone's not equal. As a manager, you know that the book From Good to Great. You know, as a manager, your job's not only to get everyone on the bus that should be on the bus, but it's your job to put them in the right seats.

Absolutely.

And you know, you just can't treat everyone equal. And as a coach, you know, I knew that, you know, I could put all the burden and all the pressure on Bobby Krahulik that I could dish out. I mean, he could take it. You know, grew up playing at Nazareth Academy for your friend Tommy Richardson. And he'd been through it and he was a guy that could lead and take it. Well. Not everyone's like that. And you know, you, I see it every day in the operating room.

You know, when I was in surgery all the time where doctors would walk in the room and two or three people in a room would get nervous and they couldn't perform because the guy was putting so much pressure on everyone and then other guys would walk in and the team operates as a machine and their ability to get everyone operating at their best, that's a talent. And I think that's something that I work on all the time, is understanding that everyone's not the same.

So let's, you got my juices going here. So I want to talk about that. So you build this culture. You don't want to hire talented, high level, you know, high performers, top producers that are going to challenge that culture, but you have to treat them differently, right? Just like you would a superstar on a basketball team. But you want to treat them in a way that is respectful to you and productive towards your culture. How do you, how do you balance that out? And you talked about the conversation that Jeff, you know, can have with a 24 year old, you know, young lady coming into the business versus a 55 year old Wiley veteran who's got 30 years in. But how do you find it? What's the key to that as a leader?

Being able to treat them differently and doing it in a productive way?

Well, it kind of goes back to passion and accountability. If you share those two qualities and, you know, they're as passionate as you are and they hold themselves to the same accountability standards that you do, then it's pretty easy. You've got a common ground that you're working from. And, you know, we've all got to remember where we came from. And I remember like it was yesterday, my first day of medical, you know, where you're running around and praying to God nobody asks you a question because, you know, you went overnight from an industry where you were at the top to the next day to an industry where you don't know anything.

Right?

And really, passion and accountability is all I had. I had no knowledge, no experience, nothing to bring to the table. But, but those two qualities and that's, that's okay.

Well, that's huge. I mean, if that's your default mode, that's pretty good default mode, isn't it? I mean, if that's what you go back to when adversity hits or you're failing over and over, I mean, that's a pretty darn good default mode.

Oh, it is. And switching industries, you know, it's common today. You know, our parents, you know, you get a job, you work there until you put your lunchbox away and you were done. And today, you know, people are switching careers and you know, the people that are successful doing that are the ones that are able to understand, you know, what it takes to go from one profession to another and start at the bottom again. And we hired a. A former Cardinals and Rockies pitcher three weeks ago. And he had worked for me before at Johnson and Johnson, and his name's Mark Thompson. He's out of Nashville, Tennessee now. And Mark has done a great job of leaving pro baseball and being successful at whatever he's done. And I've had other pro athletes that I've hired that failed miserably.

And, you know, Mark and I were in St. Louis last week talking about why is that? And it's the guys that will understand what took you to the top of one industry doesn't give you any head start or entitlement into the next industry. But if you figure out what it took to get you to the top, to get you to the Major League Baseball, and you go back to the bottom, except where you're at, it just gets easier. Getting to the top the second time or the third time, you could do it faster because you understand those common things that you did to get there.

But unfortunately, a lot of athletes, and it's gotten that way and hiring Division 1 college and football guys, they enter the workforce and the sense of entitlement is there, and they're not willing to go back to where it was when they were a sophomore in high school trying to make it there, because it takes the same skill set to make it to the top of your industry, of my industry, as it did playing college basketball or football.

Yeah. And we've had that conversation and you talk about that. But the ones I've always found, the ones that come from the high majors, right. If they don't have that sense of entitlement, though, and they are able to dial into what took them to get there, because there's so much that's thrown at them. There's so much crap that's. That they have to go through. I mean, those guys could be a little bit like Mark Thompson and knock it out of the park, couldn't they?

No question. And they all do at some point. But unfortunately, some of them end up at, you know, 25 years old and, you know, they get the ball taken away from them and they have to hit rock bottom before they figure out that, you know, they've got to regroup and get back there. But no, that the skill set that it took to get there and that drive and competitiveness, it never goes away. It's just sometimes they. Division 1 basketball right now, it's so luxurious. I mean, these players are treated so well they live in. You know, every one of these kids going to college is up. I mean, I remember the first day of college, I walked into my dorm room, and I felt like it was prison. It was a. This cold concrete walls and one little single bunk bed and.

Right. Like a sheet you could actually pull up. Your feet would stick out the bottom.

That's right. And I felt like I never thought I'd be homesick until I looked at my room. I thought, maybe I will be home. Now these kids go to college and they're living in. You know, their accommodations are unbelievable.

Right.

So it's a different world, but, you know, they all get it at some point.

Well, let's talk a little bit about if we could. So today's workforce, right, let's focus on the millennials and Gen Z, and everyone kind of takes shots at them. But the truth of the matter is, I have a ton of respect for them because here's what they want. They want their job to have meaning. They want to know that the work they're doing is important. They want to feel valued, and they want a leader who's going to embrace their growth. Which when I take a step back and look at it, isn't that what you and I did in the college coaching world? Isn't that the same thing our players wanted? So I, you know, the whole dialing into not managing your people, but actually coaching your people is so significant to me. It's really something you and I have been doing forever.

It's just what we are. It's the way we're wired. But I think it's so significant as you develop this coach's mindset. And when I work with my clients, I talk a lot about the cornerstone of that coaching relationship is trust. Can you talk into a little bit about how you go about building trust with your people? I know we've talked about transparency and things like that, but I'd love for you just to share your thoughts on that.

Well, the first thing I think, Eddie, is passion. And accountability goes back to that. If they're accountable people and you go into a relationship and you're transparent with them, they get to know you get to know them. It's. There are a lot of relationships that go south because especially with the millennials now, this younger generation, you better understand why they're working for you, what they want, where their goals are. Because if you've hired a guy or a gal that their goal is to make $60,000 a year. I mean, that's what they want. They Want that income to. Because they're all a lot better today about quality of life. I mean, we, I think our generation was work first, family second. And they're definitely more balanced, I see, than, you know, 35, 40 years ago.

But these kids, if you're, if you've got a guy or a gal wanting to make 60,000 a year, your goal for them is to make 150,000 a year. Well, that's a train wreck getting ready to happen. That's not going to work out well. Right. And you can't push someone to be more than they want to be. And that was my. One thing I do with my players is day one. We sat down and I asked a lot of questions. I wrote it all down. I kept the file I still have on every kid. Where do you want to be in two years? You know, how much weight do you want to gain in two years? You know, what are your goals? Where. What are your weaknesses? And let them tell me what their dreams are.

Because if you can push, if a guy wants to play at Indiana, you can push them very hard with. Their goal is to play it, you know, Olivet, Nazarene, you can't push them as hard. You know that. That's, you know, the higher their goals, the more they can push and the more buy in you get from them. And there's times, I can't tell you how many times that I had players in my office pull their file out and say, hey, listen, this was your idea, not mine. You know, if you want me to back off, just, you know, we got to talk about your goals. And nobody wants to set and lower their goals. And it's a re. I mean, over and over I would have those files out. And it's the same thing now as you hire someone, Eddie.

There's never been a time on this earth where it's easier to be great than it is today, ever.

I love that because I could not agree with you more. I mean, how true is that? And talk a little bit about why that is.

Well, here you go. In the state of New Mexico, where I spent quite a bit of time, if you graduate high school with these three things, 2.5 GPA, drug free, and no children, you're in the top 2%. Okay? Now think about that, Eddie. You could have done that.

Well, yeah, the 2.5 might have. No, I'm kidding.

2.5, no children, drug free, you're the top 2%. And I spoke at it. I spoke at A basketball clinic down there and to 75 kids. And I said, I want you guys to go to the mall this weekend, sit in the middle of the mall for 15 minutes and just look at the crap that you're competing against and tell me, who's going to run the banks? Who's going to be the CEOs of the company? Who's going to do this? In 15 years, you're 2.5 GPA, drug free, no children, you're in the top 2%. Come on.

Right? And. And then, you know, and I know someone's listening right now saying, well, we don't want to. We don't want to compare ourselves. That's not what you're saying. What you're saying is we all have it in us to be great.

Well, and it. And it's easier. It's easier today. You know, it. When. When you look at this generation and all the opportunities and all the resources and, you know, the things that it. You know, there was. There was a big disadvantage 25 years ago. You know, if you lived in Noble, Illinois, and went to Noble High School and weren't exposed to, you know, some of the education that was happening in Chicago or, you know, with, you know, and even in sports, I mean, if you grew up in Southern Illinois, you know, it was hard to get exposure. Well, those days are gone. I mean, you can. Anything you want is at your fingertips right now with our technology. So it really leveled the playing field for kids anywhere in the country. There's no such thing as rural area anymore.

I mean, you're on the Internet. You're just as tied in as someone in downtown Manhattan.

Isn't that the truth? Yep. Yep. I want to. I want to take you back for a second to when you're talking about if there's a millennial that wants 60,000 a year, that's what they want, and you feel like they should be shooting for 150,000. It reminds me of something that Coach Knight said years ago about Darrell Thomas. And I'm sure you remember this. I think it was in the book. But he said to him, and he said, you know, and I heard this story from, you know, our good friend and God rest his soul, Coach Pignator, years later, you know, that Darrell couldn't figure Coach Knight out because Coach Knight flat out told him, darrell, I think I want you to be great more than you want to be great.

So now here as a leader, you have someone who wants to make 60,000, have a great quality of life and feel valued. But how, as A leader. Do you develop that ability? Because, you know, you and I are from the generation where there probably wasn't a lot of empathy at one point for folks like that. Right. But now it's the message has changed, the way we lead has changed. How do you d. And look at what that employee wants and what makes them tick and how you're going to get buy in from them?

Well, right now, I'm smart enough to hire Jeff Schultz to manage that.

Great answer.

But you know what it is, Eddie, as a player, Bill Hodges was one of my mentors. And I've known coach since I was, you know, a junior in high school and still is a mentor of mine. You know, he's the guy that is responsible for the Larry Bird story down indiana State. Well, Bill told me early on I had a player and Bill said, I know you're not going to listen to me, coach, but, you know, you just can't make soft guys hard and you need to give up on that kid. And I said, bill, as a coach, I'll never do that. I'm going to push him until the last day I have them.

And if I told my players, if we practice for two hours and we do 99.9% of everything correct, which is impossible, but if that's the case, my job is to locate that point one and correct it and make better. Well, that's as a coach, as a, in management and with people. I think the quicker you can figure out where someone wants to be and what they want to be and get them in that role, the faster you can grow as a company and the less headaches you're going to have. So if, and this is a great thing about the Millennials, if they want to make 60,000, they're not going to require as much income.

So go hire another one, you know, and just, I don't think you can spend a lot of time in changing what people really want, especially as young adults, you know, and when you can put them in a role, getting them in the right seat, everything's going to work fine.

And that's a great. And we need to come back to the Larry Bird story, by the way. I would love for you to share that here in a second, but this brings me to my next point. So we spent so much time talking about how to coach these people, right? And how to coach the workforce, how to coach our people. What about. Can you talk how significant it is for the other side of the coin, for the other person in the Coaching relationship to be coachable because I think that's something that it's not being missed. But I don't think we're talking about that. You know enough how significant it is that a, you are coachable, you understand what coachable means and that you're committed to being coachable. So can you talk about that a little bit? Patient?

Well, you know, I've been exposed to a lot of legendary great coaches and, and high level athletes and been fortunate to get to know some of these people. And one of the things that stick out is I was watching San Antonio spurs practice about six years ago and Popovich just was going off on Tim Duncan and telling Tim like, hey, look, if you don't want to play today, why don't you just get the hell out of here? You know, he was, you know, slow getting going and you know, here's arguably maybe the best player in the league at the time. And after practice was over, Tim was off by himself. And I went over and introduced myself and I said, I have a question for you. I said, I spent a long time, you know, coaching. Why do you let him coach you?

And he looked at me and he kind of laughed and he said, well, if I don't let him coach me, why would I expect the rookies to let them let him coach them? So as a leader, you know, I've got to take this, I've got to be the example of, you know, I can't expect other people, him to treat me any different than he's going to treat a rookie or for me to be above that. It was just, I thought it was real clear to me then why Tim Duncan was Tim Duncan.

So what is, what does. And I love when Pop talks about hug him and hold them.

Right.

I mean, because if you just look at Pop on the surface, he's a very, very calm guy. But I mean, like you said, you go to his practices or if you really pay attention to him during a game, he's lighting guys up. But they know that he cares about them, they know that he loves them. But let's get back to being coachable and coachability. What is it that you look for in folks that is the opposite of a red flag? It's actually a tell that they are coachable.

One of the things that I look for in meeting people is do they ask questions? You know, are they, you know, in an interview, you know, if they ask questions and what kind of questions do they ask? I, I think I Shared this with you a while back. Eddie is one of my red flags now is interviewing young people is if their first two questions are, how much time off do I get? Or what kind of, how good are your benefits? It's like, come on, no one has good benefits anymore. Were you kidding me? Benefit package? Your parents told you to ask that? You know, come on. I mean, I don't even know I.

Or your spouse.

I don't even know if we have benefits. I'm joking. But, you know, those questions are, you know, that. That's kind of a deal killer for me right now. But what did they ask? I mean, are they. Do they. Are they hungry? You can't, you just can't fake passion.

So, you know, do they ask questions and you know what type of questions they ask? I'm curious. Do you ever ask. I used to, I loved asking this question, you know, because you always get the candidate right that has all the answers. They say things the right way, like it's rehearsed, and you say, okay, who's had the biggest impact on your life and what I used to love to do. And I'm curious if you've ever done this. So they'll give you who their mentor was or who impacted them. But I think you find out a lot about someone when you say, okay, well, who impacted that person, who influenced that person. And where that question came from for me was when I was recruiting, coaching college basketball, I would look at guys, inner circle. I would look at who they listened to.

I would look at how they treated their coaches versus how they treated their boys. I would look at how they treated, you know, if I saw them in a classroom, how do they, you know, respond to their teacher? How do they respond to the person in the hallway, you know, and are those some things that you try to get to? Because being coachable is so, to me, it's so significant because you can have the greatest leader, the greatest coach, but that other person isn't open to and receiving coaching, then you're never going to maximize the potential of that relationship.

Oh, there's no question. And, and that's important with, you know, partners. And, you know, when we talk about, you know, our team and we've. We've got, you know, we've got a PhD, we've got a couple of doctors on our team, and that's the same at that level. I mean, you know, it's. If they're not, if they're not coachable and going the same direction, you Are as a company, there's nothing more disruptive than someone at the top not sharing the same vision that you have as a company. And that's how companies fail, is someone that is at the top, that's not buying into what. And sometimes you have to give. I mean, you can't have, you know, five strong personalities at the top that won't listen to each other and aren't coachable because you'll never fast track any success with too many individuals.

So as you talk about people at the top, if they're not buying in, and something that just dawned on me that I'm working through with the client right now is the shared language, right? The communication, the being on the same page, how important for that is you ramp up and you're in significant growth world right now. And how important is that for you and for Jeff to know that out there, your leaders. Okay, that's not getting lost, the shared language. And, you know, you go back to Coach K always, you know, be the face that your team needs. And how significant is that?

Oh, it's huge. And that's transparency. And, you know, it's not hard for me to pick up a phone call from Jeff at 11:30 at night, even though I may not want to, when I know that he's out there working as hard or harder than anybody on the team. And that transparency passion is just something you can't hire that, you can't change that in someone. And, you know, it's just, that's a lot of fun when you get guys around you with that kind of energy and drive and everyone shares that. And that's. I can't stress enough transparency of open communication, not taking things personal. Understand that if a conversation gets cut short, we're busy, we're moving fast, and there's no egos, no feelings hurt, getting to the end goal.

Right? Right. All right. So, Pat, before I ask you the last question, where can folks who are interested in learning more about your product, your opportunities, things of that nature with Direct Biologics, where can they find more information?

Directbiologics.com Perfect.

And we'll put out, we'll put everything, you know, I'll put all your social media stuff, your LinkedIn, directbiologics.com we'll put all that in the show notes, which I don't know if we're gonna have a space for all the great quotes that you've. I think I'm at 8 pages of notes right now. And I am. I bet you didn't think I could write that fast either, did you?

That's great.

Alright, so you're sitting in front of a room full of managers, regardless of what industry. Okay. A room full of managers who are working on shifting the paradigm from a management mindset to a coaching mindset. What would besides, you know, besides the passion, accountability and transparency, what would be the other keys to being able to shift that mindset? You know, I always talk about the impact they're going to have and leaving a legacy, but for you, what would you tell them?

Get to know their, get to know their team. You know, you just can't push people until you know where they want to go. And if they don't want to go where you want to go, you've got to quickly. The quicker you identify that, the quicker you're going to get to where you want to be. You're not going to change people a lot. You know, if your goals are drastically different and you've got to address that early on and that goes both ways. And the people that they're managing, they've got to know their boss. I, I tell everyone that I know when they get a job. Have you asked your boss? I asked this and this was later in my career. I took over a company out of Clearwater, Florida and I was with Johnson and Johnson.

I was not in the place I wanted to be. It was a mismatch, me and the job. I knew I had a bad job and I never felt that in my life. It's the only time in my life I felt like I had a problem, bad job and I wanted out. The problem is I was in so deep that it was going to be hard to get out. And on paper it looked like I had a phenomenal job, just was a bad match. So I was contacted by a company out of Florida to run their build a US sales force and a biologic company. So I went down, I met with the CEO and I said to him after we got through the contract, I said, okay, Jim, in a year from now or at Christmas this year? It was in March.

At Christmas this year, if someone asks you, was hiring Pat Klingler a good move or a great move? What's going to determine that for you? What is it you're looking for? Because I knew what I thought I would say if I was him. And he said, well, you know what, Pat? If you can go out and you can bring on 10 distributors throughout the United States between Now and the end of the year, I think that would be good if you brought on 15. I think that would be great. Well, I said, okay. So leaving there, I knew what he thought good was, and I knew what he thought great was. That's not what I would have said had I been in his shoes. But also, I wasn't the CEO. So it's like being an assistant coach. It doesn't matter what you like.

It matters what your boss likes. So that year, I had a bonus program, and at Christmas time, he pulled. We had a Christmas party, pulled me off the side, and he said, you know, you son of a bitch, you set me up. Back in. Back in March, when I said, do you remember what you asked me? I said, sure I do. And he said, well, I can't give your bonus because, you know, I said, bringing on 15 would be great. And you brought on 41 distributors, so here's your bonus. And it was three times what, you know, I had my contract, and, you know, that didn't equate to, you know, that were ultra successful there. It just.

I listened to what he wanted as my boss, and I delivered, and then we sat down the next year, and I talked about what I think we needed, which wasn't directly aligned with him. But early on, I understood what my boss wanted, and you want it, I'll give it to you. I'll do what you want, and then earn his trust to help get the company where we needed to get to. But early on, if I wouldn't have asked that question, that's not what I would have done. And I think that's so critical for the leaders to know what the employees want and need, and the employees know what the leaders. That communication is so critical. And I saw that as a breakdown in coaching, where I would see assistant coaches come into my gym and say, hey, I love that kid.

I love that kid. And I knew the head coach and I knew the head coach wouldn't like him.

Right, Right.

You know, and as an assistant coach, when I started my career, I had totally shut out what I liked in players and saw. I had to look at players through Earl Diddle's eyes and my head coach and know what he wanted.

Right.

And that's the same in the workforce, is that communication between employees and bosses.

Right. And you know what? I can. I do have time. Can I ask you one more quick question in regards to what you just said?

You bet.

Okay. So we talk about roles all the time. Right. The value that someone brings to the team. Is how much they embrace their role, whether they're, like you just said, whether they're capable of doing more, but that's just not what their team needs. Right. Can you talk into that, into the sales world, into your world, into what you're doing as you grow? How important is it for someone to first identify the role, second embrace it, and then do it to the best of your ability? It really goes back to when you said, I'm going to get the best six minutes out of that guy I can get out of them.

Well, that's. That's the accountability part, is when you agree, when you've communicated enough with your employee or your boss, whatever, when you've openly communicated, and you both agree that this is where you are and this is where you're going and what it takes to get there. And you've got to be able to measure that in some way to keep them on track. But I think when those goals are laid out and everyone knows where you're going, I think it's easy to push. It's hard to push someone when they don't know where you're going.

Right? Right. Pat, this has been unbelievable. And for more episodes like this, you can go to itun, you can go to Stitcher, you can go to Google Play, as well as theathletics of business dot com. And please, I know that coach knocked it out of the park here. Please go to itunes and rate and review this podcast. Leave your comments. Feel free to email me at edemolitor Group to let us know what you thought of this podcast, any other podcast, or to find out more about what we do in terms of executive coaching, leadership consulting, as well as my keynote speaking. Pat, I can't thank you enough. I really appreciate you, brother.

Hey, thank you, Eddie. And I have one question for you.

Oh, is this a loaded gun?

Hey, I've gone back through some of your podcasts. Please tell me that. That you have done a podcast with your father.

Well, it's funny you should say that, because I think that would be the ultimate podcast, and it's a matter of getting him to sit still long enough. But the short answer is, no, I haven't. We talked about it. We're actually talking about writing a book together. Well, not talking about. We're actually laying that out there. But there will be a podcast, because honestly, everything that I talk about, you know, this is. This will be. You know, we're over 55 podcasts recorded now. Everything that we're saying and we talk about is the same conversations I had with him growing up. I just think there's so much value coming from him. But I will be sure to pass that along. And I do appreciate. And we're not out of the woods yet. You may still use your favorite line.

Well, I, I just wonder, Eddie, how I, I'm not even going to say it on the air, but I have the utmost respect for your dad. And please tell him I said hello, and I can't wait to see the podcast with him on.

All right, Pat, I appreciate you.

All right. Thanks, Eddie.

Thanks.

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