The Art of Elite Coaching: Leading with Integrity and Purpose

We're not running a scouting service. We're running the college basketball program. And you gotta have horses, but sometimes you don't know who those horses are going to be.

How is it that you stay true to yourself and how is it you have stayed true to the values that drive you?

One thing that we all can fix that we don't want to fix is ourselves. Why do you want to play five or eight minutes when in four years you can play 30 minutes? You got to be able to get them and then to grow them, you got to be able to keep them. There's things out there screaming, don't take me. But sometimes our old football coach, Joe Tiller used to say it like, don't be blinded by what you don't have. You're really going to take off as a player once you start getting over yourself, but you're really going to take off as a coach when you get over yourself.

How is it that you're able to align the messaging that you're doing using the same language, using similar terms?

I want to see what you're all about, like, not just like as a player, but just that body language and how you treat other people in high school. I mean, that's who you are.

You never want to follow a legend, but you were following a mentor. What is it that still drives you with all the success you have? Is it the players? Is it the relationship? In this episode of the Athletics of Business podcast, I had the privilege of speaking with Matt Painter, head coach of Purdue University's men's basketball team, one of my all time favorites. There's guys in this business that are just different, and Matt's one of those guys. He's always found a way to be authentic, to be himself, and to achieve and impact his players at an incredibly high level. And inside this episode, we're going to explore the shifts in college basketball and how Matt stays true to his core values. Amid these changes, Matt highlights the importance of self awareness and honesty. Things we talk about being the competitive advantage, right?

Especially in recruiting, where he makes sure players understand their roles, the competitive landscape and the commitment required for personal growth. Our conversation dives into why intelligence and production often outweigh pure talent and how Matt's focus on character and work ethic builds a strong, loyal team. He also shared how personality testing has become such a significant part of his recruiting, helping to identify players who align with Purdue's culture. Additionally, Matt described as a unique coordinator system with the coaching staff, which allows for specialization while maintaining a cohesive team Message underpinned by communication and accountability. Matt, thank you so much for joining us today in the Athletics of Business podcast. I am beyond thrilled to have you here. I know how hard it is for you to carve out time, so thank you, my friend.

No problem. Thank you for having me on.

I'm going to jump right into it. You ask anybody in the business, right? Anybody who knows anything about the business of college basketball, and they'll say, matt Painter, great player, hall of Fame coach, even better person. So my question to you is, this is. It's evolved. I mean, it's changed so much. You've seen so many things over the years of your coaching career. How is it that you stay true to yourself? And how is it you have stayed true to the values that drive you met?

I was just talking about it like, the one thing that we all can fix, that we don't want to fix is ourself. I think that's the one thing. Like, you know, you think, I got to get this guy to box out. I got to get this guy to run. I got to work with this guy on his shot. But deep down, schematically, like, you got to know what you're doing for your personnel, and sometimes that changes, sometimes that doesn't change. But you also got to reach each guy. So from a recruiting standpoint to an evaluation standpoint, you can't just do the same thing with every single guy, because not every single guy is the same way.

And so just being able to reach them and being honest with them, I think that's the thing that we've tried to do in recruiting more than anything is be as honest as we can. Because, like, you get to a point to where everyone says it to you, like, well, how are you going to use me? And I always used to, like, just give some dissertation, right? Like, okay, this is what I'm going to say when I'm saying. And a part of me saying it was thinking, well, what does he want to hear?

Right?

We are in the business of sales. Like, what does he want to hear? But then once they get there, like, what if somebody just flat beats him out? Well, that goes totally against, like, anything you said. Like, there was no caveats in what you said. You just said, how are you going to use me? And you answered it. So I always preface this by saying, the last, like, five, six, seven years, however kind of change is, like, if you're going to become one of our top two or three scorers, here's how I'm going to use you. If you don't, then you're going to have to blend in with those top two or three scores from an offensive standpoint. And then right away, like, you can see the light go off. I said, has anybody said this to you?

Other coaches said this to you, right? And they'll be like, no, you're the only one. I go, well, they're going to say it to you. They're just not going to say it to you until November 1st, before that first exhibition game. And I just said. Because I used to be one of those guys. And I just said. And I didn't realize what I was doing. I just realized, hey, man, I got to sell Purdue. I got to sell this opportunity. But all we're doing is overselling it.

We're going to.

But if we get them, we're creating a problem. And now they're like, our. My assistants will be like, hey, just keep doing what you're doing, coach. We're going to have nobody on our roster. Like, this is great. Like, I'm like, no, we're going to have people on our roster. People want to come here. We might not be able to get a top 50, top 70 guy all the time. I go, but it's still a pretty special place. We got good people, we got good education, basketball crazy when it comes to our fans.

So.

So, like, that's really helped us. It's helped us evolve. It's helped us get better in role definition. It's helped us keep our players. Like, we've done the best job in the country for a high major program in keeping our guys. I wouldn't say we're under promising. We're just trying to be really honest and say, hey, man, like, you're not going to roll in here and we're going to throw you the ball more than Zach Edey. Like, you're. That's just not going to work. But when Zach Edie came in, you know, I preface that the same way. Like, you know, I didn't promise him anything. I was like, hey, you got to get better. His number one thing to me was, I don't want a red shirt because I redshirt guys. And they'll be like, well, who are you going to redshirt this year?

I go, I don't know. I'm waiting to watch them in practice. And so when they get there, like, why do you want to play five or eight minutes when in four years you can play 30 minutes? Like, it makes no sense to me. Like, why do you want to have a heavier load academically when you can have a lighter load academically and get the same degree. And then who the hell wants to go out into the real world early? Let's be honest, like, the only people that like shake their head at that are the people that haven't done it yet.

Every person that's went out there that's in their mid-50s are like, yeah, I love to have an extra year of college, but when you're 19 years old, you look at red shirting like it's a death sentence when in reality it's the best thing for you. Because now you get to grow, now you get to improve and it doesn't cost you a year if you sit the bench or you play five to eight minutes. Like, you're not going to look back on that and say, you know what, that's okay. Like, you're just not, you're going to look back and go, I wasted a year. Well, now you don't waste a year. So we try to do things kind of really like people were doing it 20 years ago and we just stay with it. Because education hasn't changed. The game has changed.

Things around the game has changed. But last time I checked, taking care of the basketball and rebounding were the two most important things. So that hasn't changed. So there's still some things that are in there, but it's still their experience. If their experience is three schools in four years or four schools in five years, like, where's their loyalty towards, like when they get, you know, who are they going back and seeing they go into all those schools, are they like only with the one they graduated, if they graduated. So like, learn to really recruit some guys that fit, that love the game, that education is important and to have that balance. And then I, I think you got a better chance to be successful.

So when you're honest up front, right, like in the recruiting process when you made that transition obviously solves a lot of problems down the road. But does that get them? Does that accelerate their self selecting into the culture that you've had and the way that you do things?

We've been to 15 out of 17 NCAA tournaments and went back to back years, not at the tournament 10, 11 years ago. And with that we started personality testing. And what I didn't realize it was going to do for me was it wasn't going to give me the answers, it was just going to give me more questions. So it allows you to vet something. So what people do in the portal is people look for Talent and I'm looking for production, but I'm also looking through production, through growth. They're looking at immediate satisfaction of grabbing somebody and getting somebody. Well, if you get six or seven guys and half of them are successful, you're fortunate. But now you got three guys, four guys that are unhappy. So it's so important to really understand like what you're trying to get to, but you're also really vetting.

Like we've all hired people and I always call it the six month surprise. Like you want a positive surprise after six months, not the negative surprise because.

You'Re going to get one way or the other.

Yeah, that resume have to be neutral, right? Exactly. And so that piece of it's so hard. Hiring is very difficult and recruiting is very difficult. But what they don't understand all the time is I know exactly who I want, I just sometimes can't get them. But how do you navigate your situation when you've struck out a couple times and still get somebody who's solid for your program, that's probably the hardest piece to do.

Well, and this is what's really cool. If I could read something and I was getting ready for it when I was preparing 2020, number 37 recruiting class ranked recruiting class in the country. 2021, 41st, 2022 30th, 2023, 73rd. But I read something where I don't know if you had said it was an observation that intellect and winning attributes supersede rankings and upside. Can you talk into that? Because that's so significant.

Yeah, like, you know, as your group is no different than like your organization or your company. It's your collective intelligence. Like, like, where are we in our group DNA? Like, like, who are we? Like, how do we think? How do we process? Like, there's an old adage in recruiting. You got to be able to get them and then to grow them, you got to be able to keep them. And if you can't keep them, you can't grow. And so it's real simple. People look at that like, well that obviously that's profound but like, that's just the way it is. Like if you keep having to train the people in your business instead of them growing because they stay like, you're never going to get to where you need to get.

Like, and you might have some success, but you're not going to have ultimate success that way. So you look at those numbers. First of all, it's impossible because the people that are evaluating them, they're evaluating normally the whole country. And it's impossible for them to really dig into each guy. And so what happens is stereotypically people look at some people that we recruit as not being good enough. And they look at every single person that a blue blood or people that are successful, well, they have to be good. It's actually a joke because when they will rank people that go to those blue bloods higher, I'm not talking about Chris Weber or Glenn Robinson or Alan Henderson or people of that level.

I'm just talking about somebody that's a top 50 kid that goes to a blue blood that all sudden is ranked 17 and you're like, you know what? Like, I don't see that, like good player, but not a great player. And then when we take guys that they go off of like who's offered them instead of digging into really how good they are. And then what you get is athleticism gets ranked higher than people that don't have athleticism and they're not getting in. I always have this argument with people. It's the talent versus production, lean towards production. You want productive players, you want productive people. And then now if you can't sign. So for us, we have a tough time.

We've had one McDonald's All American in 19 years, but yet we got the most wins in the Big Ten by 16 games in the last 10 years. So it kind of doesn't make a whole lot of sense right when you got the third most wins in the country, but it does four years. So like I could go on with things that nature, but at the end of the day, we're not running a scouting service, we're running the college basketball program. And you gotta have horses, but sometimes you don't know who those horses are going to be. We didn't know Zach Eddy would be that guy. We thought Caleb Swanigan would be that guy. Like Carson Edwards.

We thought he would be good, but we didn't know that he'd be a two time all American, a sophomore in junior year, pretty top 90 guy, top hundred guy. Jay Nivey was 87. I just saw one of our graphics is the reason I know his actual number. And then in two years he's the fifth pick of the draft. I was just amazed he was ranked so low. But once again, people aren't evaluating them as much as what they can do and how they can grow for who's actually recruiting them. I don't even know if that's a conscious thought on their end. It's kind of, I would think it's subconscious thought.

Yeah, and that's what I was going to ask. So like what's the narrative when they come in? Right. Like you're 87th wreck, you know, 87th range, you didn't get the respect you deserve or they're overrated or is it, hey, you're here. We're just going to do these things because this is what's going to get us to where we need to be.

Yeah, well, you're ranked 1 or 500. We do the same thing with you. Like we're going to help you get better, we're going to work on things, we're going to, you know, unpack mentally more than anything. But that's what happens. It's a really good point because that's what happens when you're at those elite schools is because everybody has a plan in their head of I'm going to be here a year, I'm going to be here two years. And it's hard to unpack mentally. And they put undue pressures on them because if they don't play all the time now they're trying to jam a full game into 15 minutes or a full game into 20 minutes and they press.

I do a seminar to start every year with our players and it's on shot selection and it's really over offensive efficiency and how the sausage is made and how you run offense. And I show five out of our last seven teams that have been very efficient on the offensive end. And I go through a lot of different things with them and showing them the differences in each team and the similarities in each team. And it's always important for them to like, see like, hey, this guy here is a freshman, he was a two time all American. He wasn't efficient as a freshman. Then you go to the next guy and say, oh, Caleb Swanning. And he was runner up national player the year as a sophomore, he wasn't efficient as a freshman. And then you keep going.

Dakota Matthias, who was one of our most efficient players, wasn't efficient as a freshman. And I said, you guys see what's going on here. Very talented guys, good players, but it's a hard adjustment. And now we're not talking about the hard numbers that we grew up thinking about was how much do you average, how many rebounds do you get? Just hard numbers, right? And it's now we're talking how do you play the game? You know, can you fit from a functionality standpoint, Are you a good screener? Do you have pace when you move, do you cut, do you Understand the game. Do you understand angles? Because there's a lot to the game that brings your efficiency to the forefront or doesn't bring your efficiency to the forefront. You're learning how to play, you're learning how to do little things and it just takes time.

And these are guys that you know. Carson Edwards played three years in the pro. Jay Nivey is going to start for the Pistons this year. Caleb Swanigan was in the NBA for three years. Dakota Matthias has had a couple cups of coffee in the NBA. So you're dealing with guys and you're showing this to them. And you'll say this is why it's so hard is because you got to be detail oriented. You got to understand what you're doing. And there's another team out there, right? There's a. There's another team trying to stop you from doing that. So we really dive into that because I think once you can become a great offensive efficient team, you're going to put the other team in binds, especially defensively, because you're making baskets, you're setting your defense when you miss.

And then if you're taking good shots and you're missing them, you're giving yourself a chance to offensive rebound.

And by doing that seminar and talking about how the sausage is made now, you're kind of running to the point where it's like you're not going to have to coach the discretionary effort, right? They're going to understand the way things are done here. I want to go back to something real quick before. So I do have a question related to your coordinator system, right? Guys you just mentioned, we're talking about their NBA, we're talking about their performance. All high character guys. And I can remember being in a public league all star game. It was either Kennedy, King or Malcolm X. And I'm standing with a couple guys from the Big Ten. I was a Division 2 coach at the time and there was one kid everybody was drooling over and I don't think it was Ronnie Fields, but it was around that time.

And I said, there is not a chance I would ever touch him. And someone jokingly says, and I know who it was. And I could tell you because you would know the person, but this is true to their personality. Like that's just because you can't get them. I said, I said, no, shit, shock, right? Anyways. But I said, no. I said, because you can't lose with them. I go, you guys are all worried about who you can win with here. I said, I was just Young and dumb at the time, but it just always made sense to me. Like, I want to know when I recruit someone, can I lose with you? I want to know how you're going to treat the person in the cafeteria that has no impact on your goals.

I want to know, do you hold the door for a lady you don't know on campus on your visit? You know those things? How do you get to that? Like, to a Purdue guy? Like, how do you get to someone who fits into your culture?

Yeah, it's no different. Like, you know, everybody has trial and error and like, you know, you take guys, you think a certain thing, but did you really do your homework? Like, at first, Like, I was amazed that I never used to get somebody's high school stats. Like, that blew my mind. Like, now I look at high school stats all the time, but these guys, hey, we need to offer this kid. I'll be like, okay, do you have his personality test? Do you have his transcript? And do you have his high school stats? No, no. Then we're not offering. This is a no brainer. Like, no, no. That's. That's not what we're doing. We're going to have a checks and balances here. And the number one thing I want to see on his transcript is, does he miss class? He's got 17 tardies.

Like, why do we have 17 tardies here? And I'm all for it. Like, I liked hanging in the hallway in high school. Like, I'm with you, but understand the system, brother. After you get two tardies, like, understand the deal. Like, I got to be on time.

How many times have you got those transcripts and held your breath when you started looking at them, right?

And you see the Alphabet, right? Like, you're like, hey, man, like, how hard, yeah, how hard can it be for US History? Like, like you got a C minus or like, you know what, Just didn't dress for P.E. Like, there's things out there screaming, don't take me. But sometimes our old football coach, Joe Tiller used to say it, like, don't be blinded by what you don't have. Your line stinks. Now you can get a good lineman. Like, make sure you still do your work and make sure that guy is still for you. So, yeah, a lot of that. Like, going in and just doing your. Always talk about the passion for the game and then the competitive skill. But just like vetting the personality test is more vetting than anything.

You got to get into the weeds and it's not going to give you the answers. It's going to give you more questions. So you know, which angle and which.

Test do you use?

The company is profile, but we use the disc. Test disc.

Okay.

Yeah.

That's awesome. I love the fact that you do that. Speaking of the type of characters and the type of kids you bring into the program, I have a slide in one of my big presentations, one of my keynotes, and it's a view during a timeout. Okay. It's a video, and it's you asking your team what they're seeing out there.

Right.

And it was a very significant moment in a very significant game. And people are, like, blown away by that. Can you talk about who impacted you? Like, where did that come from? The awareness to know how important it is because they're seeing things differently out there than you are probably seeing more.

Where did that go? Well, you can't collaborate with bozos.

Right?

So it wasn't me, like, having a free for all at a timeout was me talking to a really intelligent player that had the confidence to speak up and saying, hey, he's getting pressured too much. I think I know your clip. He's getting pressured too much. Here, you know, let me make this pass. I can make this pass. Can you make it? Yeah, I can make it. Okay, cool. But you're also dealing with the player who is speaking, is very intelligent basketball player and gets. Even though he was young and gets it, the credit really goes to him. But it's also like, you're really going to take off as a player once you start getting over yourself, but you're really going to take off as a coach when you get over yourself.

And that's just kind of part of where it's really helped me here in like, the last eight to 10 years at Purdue, like, get over yourself. And I think, like, any human being is going to, like, be affected when people say negative things about you when you struggle. You're not human if you, like, you disagree with that. Like, you. You have to agree with that. Nobody likes derogatory things to be said about them. But if you're going to start reacting to that, and I listen to it, but I don't react to it. Like, sometimes there's some silver lining there. Like when we got upset in the NCAA tournament, like, I had some people around me, like, start to, like, get mad and they're saying it, and I was like, hey, man, they're right. Like, a lot of times they're not, but they're right. We.

We did get beat by People we should have beat and we did fight like hell to be in great positions and then squander those things. It wasn't intentional and it's not who we are, it's just what we do. So don't try to take it personal, but we all take it personal. But like they're right. Like, that's just part of it, man. Like grow from it. Like, if you can't handle it, then don't coach major college basketball. So for me, I think it's important because I don't think it's fair for a lot of the young guys who what they deal with because they've all grown up in social media and they will listen to things that are said that are great about them, that can hurt them and then bad things about them that can hurt them. So, like it could go both ways.

They struggle and it could hurt them or they have great success and then they think they're the end all, be all. So it's no different than the poison underneath the sink, right? It can stay there for 100 years and not hurt anybody, but if you pick it up, swallow it, you're going to die from it.

We talk all the time with our clients about being the face and voice that your team needs to see in here. And you are amazing in high pressure situations, right? You're neutral, you're even. I mean, you have the energy, you have the focus and that's so important for your team to feed off that. How did you develop that? Was that something that came natural to you as a player or is that something over time and coaching that you developed?

Yeah. I'll tell you a quick story. When I, When Bruce Weber got the job at Illinois, I got the head coaching job at Southern Illinois. So we had a planned trip to go Sweden, Finland, Estonia, Norway, that area to play games. So when he gets the job at Illinois, he gets his team to go on that same trip to where we're not in the same place all the time, but we are a couple times. And his team played before the Southern Illinois team. I kind of forget how it works. Well, I'd never been a head coach besides in camp, like I coached three games my first year, Division 3 JV, were 3, 030. We're down 20 in every game. We're down. Yeah, yeah, there it is. Instant brilliance, right? So three and oh, down 20 every game.

So that's the only time besides, you know, working with little kids in camp, I've been a head coach. And so in the middle of this game that we're playing in one of those countries. I'm yelling at one of our guys or I'm yelling at a ref or I'm doing whatever, and all sudden I bump into somebody, and I just went all the way down the sideline to the other coach's box, and I bumped the other coach, and the guy put his arm behind me and says, coach. And he just, like, opened his hand and like. Like, get your ass back to where you belong. I was like, whoa. Oh, I don't have a good feel here. Then I get a couple technicals for. I use my hands when I speak a lot.

So if you come to practice or whatever, like, somebody said it to me the other day about, like, hey, man, golly, you know, gesture with your hands. Well, I always clasp my hands after those technicals behind my back during the game. And then I just realize, like, whenever I get into that way or I get going like that, I jump over the fight a little bit. So I haven't got a technical in 10 years. But it helps me move from play to play. It helps me to stay ahead of it and not overreact to calls, not overreact to something that goes against us. And just. Just like you would tell a player when he makes a mistake, like, hey, next play, man, move on. I just move on mentally and just try to think ahead. So, like, I'm going to have our team prepared.

So it was something that kind of happened organically because of a couple of those incidents that I had. And then I just was like, I'm a much better coach this way. And, like, our fans don't look at it that way. They look at it, you know, because I follow Jean, Katie. Like, I'm not, like, working the refs, right? Like, I'm not getting a call. I'm not doing things. And I'm talking to the officials all the time. I'm just. Obviously, I hear more diplomatic about it.

And it was a different time back then. It was a way different.

But, like, you know, be yourself. Like, it's okay. Like, that piece is okay. And when you follow someone as successful as I did, people are going to look at things differently like that. That's how I got to that point with it, because just. But more than anything, just, like, getting over myself, like, it's. I'm a part of what goes on here, but I look at it as. I got to do my part, but it's also a small part. It's a player's game.

So to that point, you have a coordinator system. Right. And there is business of college athletics. We don't even just say college basketball. College athletics at your level is incredibly ego driven. It just. It is what it is. I mean, it's just, you look at any business at the top of the top, there's a ton of egos and people have a hard time letting go. A hard time letting go of control. Sometimes it's a thing where you're beating yourself up like, am I not good enough as a head coach to just do this myself and not have. But you have. First of all, it was your idea, right? It was something that you saw as you just watching football. How did it come about? Was it a challenge for you to let go of it? Was it hard or.

Yeah, and it's also like you're a part of the prep, so you're a part of, you know, getting ready and what you're going to do in practice for those three days. And you're talking about, here's what I think can work, here's what not. But they normally come to me with it, like, so they come to me and they talk about. Especially offensively, they'll come and talk about some things and then sometimes it's just like it's status quo because you play some people that are very similar to who you've been playing. So defensively, when they come to me, they normally only have a couple things because we have a system where going to guard things about the same way. And then there's times like, man, I. I don't know if we can double the post this way.

I don't know if we can handle this in ball screen defense the way we're doing it. And that's where we'll make the adjustments. And that's. And we're normally colliding at that time because they do a lot of their work beforehand and then I do a lot of my work after we play a game. I don't ever get ahead no matter who we play. So if we got to play somebody on Thursday, I'm just worried about them, then we got to turn around and play on Sunday. I don't get to that until Friday morning. They might give me stuff to help me get up to speed.

Right.

A lot of times when I come to them, after I watch a couple games and all the clips, hey, I think we got to do a few things differently. Or there'll be games that you come to them and say, I don't see any change here in what we're doing. And they'll be like, yeah, Me either. I think we're good here. So we're always prepared offensively for differences. I really believe you take the emotional. I wouldn't say it's guesswork, but decision making out of it by just doing your work early to say, you know, situationally, here's where I think and I try to flip things. I try to say, like, if I was going against us, here's what I would do. Like, I would do these things here because I think this is where we're most vulnerable. We can get exposed the most.

So let's be prepared for that. Even though that isn't something that they traditionally do. Just troubleshoot all vulnerable situations and scenarios and areas. So, like you're on top of stuff and just having everything prepared more than anything. When we switched offensively, our vernacular, everything has a meaning to it. So, like, it looks like it's tough. It's really the illusion of complexity. It's pretty simple. But you got to know what it means. And like, we put the time into it. It's no different than a little kid in vocab words. Like if, you know, you're cab words, there it is.

What does that do? And then think about, like the business world, right, where you have the micromanagers, you have the people that lean over their people, whether it's from, right, the executive level to the second line level to the front line. What does that do for you for mental bandwidth? Right. And decision making fatigue. It kind of frees you up a little bit during the game.

It does free you up. Yeah. But you got to make sure, like, there's nothing wrong with micromanaging somebody that doesn't have a great deal of experience and then weaning off of that. But if you just micromanage your whole group, like you either have the wrong group or you're the wrong person. Right? Like, it's just like micromanaging. There's nothing wrong with micromanaging somebody that doesn't have that experience, but someone who does have that experience and know what they're doing and they're lockstep with what you want in your organization, like it's going to work. You're going to hurt yourself. Like, you're just going to, you know.

And you talk about. So you have the offensive coordinator, you have who does your defense. Does Paul do your defense.

Paul lost does defense. And Terry Johnson does defense. Brandon Brantley does personnel. Sasha Stefanovich does out of bounds and side out of bounds.

P.J.

Thompson does offense. And then I do all the ATO special situations, late game stuff. And sometimes we'll. We will stay with what we normally run, and then sometimes we'll go to different specials. So we have some different packages, some different stuff in there. And I used to get into a lot of things that had to be specials at those times, and it just doesn't. You know, sometimes you think you're trying to fool somebody too much, and, like, it's like you end up fooling yourself, right? Like, just six strengths of your team. If you want to get into something different or you wanted to. Like when you get into, like, short clock on the side, have to have a three. You. You gotta have some good stuff there. You gotta have some things that you can go to.

But if you got a full clock and you got execution, like, go to your shrinks, go to where you're the most efficient.

So with all these different guys, different coaches, doing different things, how is it that great cultures have what they have shared languages? How is it that you're able to align the messaging that you're doing using the same language, using similar terms, and making sure that even though everyone has different personalities, the kids are hearing the same things from everybody on the.

Well, you have to find out what they're taking in. So, like, we start, like, everybody does a lot of workouts in the summer. We don't. We practice. So you got to start it early. So you started in June, you started in July. You start with the vernacular. You start with them understanding things. We have our teaching tapes in terms of the plays that we run. And then we have everything in our video catalog so they can go to these things and they can learn. We have a lot of individuals tape with the coaches. So you're talking to them so you don't have the mixed messages of. You asked a question and three assistants gave three different answers, right? And so, like, if you got an offensive question, go to pj. You got a defensive question, go to Paul or Terry.

And so, like, each guy, if you want to know tendencies, go to Brandon. So, like, each guy has their. Their place in what they're doing. And you work. But then we get into the fall and we take quizzes. We're going to take another quiz next week. So the word association is really important. So give them the word and see if they can write the definition. Because sometimes guys know things, but they don't know how to, like, write it out. Then if you go running, they got it. Like, they're like, so getting. It's more important than anything. We have guys that 100%. Get it. They won't have a great score on their quiz. I'll be like, man, what's the issue here? Well, we all learn differently. Like sometimes you got, you know, the video helps you, sometimes the walkthrough helps you. Going live helps you.

And then we'll flip it and give them the definition. Then they got to give the word. So you see who's connecting, who's 88% on both, who's 100% on both, who's 60% on both? Or one guy's 85 one and 65 on the other. You're like, whoa. Like, well, he learns that way. He learns a little bit different. But you're just trying to find out what they know. Because what I know is not important. You know, they're the ones that play. So then we're just trying to get them on the same page and then what we don't know. So we'll do a thing called competitive sets. So we'll get 20 sets and we'll go into a game and these are going to be 80% of what we're going to run in that game. All right? So we'll get two wins.

Black shirts at one end, gold shirts at the other end. They'll run a set. Coaches can't talk. We'll put the board up so they got to run it. So then they run the same play again, but they change ends. Why they change ends? If you're a multi positional guy, you change positions so we get it set up to where they know, okay, I'm the one here. We change ends. I'm the two who's coming in at the one so they know exactly what they're doing. So we go 20 minutes of that in our 20 sets. We'll get to out of bounds plays, we'll get to side out of bounds plays. We'll just do it for the full 20 minutes. And then when shots go up, you got to get to where you're supposed to be rebounding.

You got to get to where you're supposed to be in the safety. We pick the ball up. So you got to the point guards got to get to the nail to get long rebounds, but also pick the ball up at that point. So you get a point if you run the play right and then you get your jammer safety, rebounders right, and then you move on. But if you don't get a point, whatever it is. But whenever that mistake gets made, the play gets written down and the Mistake gets written down and then when we get to the end, we go through it with everybody, so everybody gets that. So say one team made five mistakes, one team made four mistakes. Which happens. That. It just happens. So like now you got nine things.

So now we're going to go through all nine things and talk in great detail about it. Well, three or four of them were probably a jammer, safety, rebounder situation. We don't need to go through that. They know that. They just didn't concentrate, they just didn't do it. So we got a handful of things we have to go through that they ran in multi positional things for about probably half of them. And then we just keep doing it.

I love this. And you know, it's funny, I was at a shoot around a couple years ago when Creighton was at Texas and Coach Mack and his staff, everything they were saying was game volume, game volume in a walkthrough, right? And when as you're talking and telling me this part, all I can hear is your practice guys yelling, guys complaining that it wasn't a mistake. You know what I mean? And. But the sense of accountability and the battles that must create like the complexity we talk about, you can only grow through discomfort. And how do you help your people figure out how to create that order out of the complexity? There has to be just some intense moments in your practices.

Well, when you get. And that's a big piece of what we do in recruiting, like, it doesn't work with guys that aren't going to be able to pick it up. Like you're in a mean. But I always tell them we haven't had anybody in here that couldn't pick it up. All you have to do is give an effort and try. But you got to treat it like a class, right? You got to treat it like a class. And I think that's what really helps. Because I've had people in recruiting be like, man, I just don't know. I said, I said, man, hey, it doesn't matter. I said, if you like basketball and you'll put the time in which you will. I just said, you'll really enjoy it.

But they do get into arguments there because they're like, hey, I did this and I like it. From a standpoint of you did your job and now, you know you did your job well, defend yourself. But don't start with some BS here and you're trying to con me like I'm, you know, some official down the street, like, you know what I mean? Like no, like we're taping this. Like, like, stand up for yourself, but don't be blowing smoke here.

Let me ask you this, and I know you don't like to talk about yourself, but I have to ask you this question because I believe that connection is the key to the relationship. Right. Like your ability to connect and figure out what makes each player ticket, what's meaningful to them, what are the little things that you do, like the intangibles as a coach that help you form and forge those unbelievable bonds that you have, your players. So they let you in. Right?

Right.

And they let you in and figure out what makes them tick.

Yeah. Just always, you know, whenever you see them, always talk, like always talk to them. Like if you can meet with them without calling a meeting, like the one minute meeting, the two minute meeting, the three minute meeting, like that's more important than anything. Like if they just know you genuinely care and want them to be successful. So like, that's my point. The other thing that I do is like, I just try to own when I make mistakes because that's what I want ultimately them to do because that's when you can grow. You own it, you fix it. You don't own it, you can't fix it. So. But if I don't set that example and say, like I referee practices because I don't want the back and forth banner with my assistance, I want them to have good relationships.

And that's what a lot of coaches do. Like all sudden they're like, hey, like coaches killing me, man. Like, he's like over here. And then you're like, so I just ref by myself now. You said, hey, you can deal with it. I said, but if you're going to like turn on me or like run your mouth, like I'm going to turn on you. Because that's what a Big ten official is going to do. If you're disrespectful to him and he gives you attack and you're still disrespectful to you, he's not giving you a call and nor should he. Like, you know, and so like, get them to understand, like, don't jump over that competitive wall and make things personal or do things there.

But like, as a coach, like anytime that you can have conversations with them, when you see them about stuff, even if it's just small talk, like, you have to like, like be there and, and make sure I'm not a big phone guy. It doesn't mean I Don't get on the phone and call recruits because obviously you have to, or text them because you have to. But I will go out. I go out a lot, so that's what I want to be seen and I want to see what you're all about. Like, not just like, as a player, but just that body language and how you treat other people in high school. I mean, that's who you are.

And if you're a jerk and you back talk like your mom in front of people or like you dog out the manager on your high school team because you're just, you know, you got the power. Like, you know, you're not our guy. Like, there's too many good players and good people out there. It's a team sport. It's just not going to work.

So along those lines, what did Coach Katie mean to you? Like, what was the impact he had on you? So you said it earlier. I say it all the time. You never want to follow legend, but you were following a mentor. You were following, you know what I'm saying, Like a very significant person along your journey.

Yeah.

Can you talk about that a little bit?

Well, I think what he did for us was he gave us a blueprint. And I think a lot of what you see in college basketball, the blueprint is to cut corners, to get where you need to be. Because there's a lot of successful people in our hall of fame that cut corners, and there's a lot that did it. And like, who are you? Like, we have a great example of someone who's stepping down from the business and Tony Bennett, who is as straight up as anybody who's ever coached college basketball. And he set a great model for a lot of young coaches, but also his players, because he lived his life through his faith, but he also lived his life how, like, you'd want. You want that.

You want someone who's honest, who's straightforward, that's in tune with himself, being that role model, being that head coach. And like, that's what we need. Like, we need that for our business. And now he's leaving our business. So, you know, for me, like, I've. I followed Coach Katie and Coach Katie is one of the nicest people you'll ever meet. But if you saw him coach a game, like, you would think he's a borderline madman. And, like, he just, like, sometimes would jump over the fight. But you loved how competitive he was. But you loved, like, how he was an everyday guy, he's just a normal guy. And then, like, you could talk with him, you can laugh with them. When I say that for people that don't know him, about him being, like, a really nice guy, they look at you like you're crazy.

But, like, that's something for me. I didn't agree with everything, like, when you played. I'm a very opinionated person when it comes to basketball.

That's okay, though. That helps you, right?

No doubt. At age 22, when I got to 32, I realized that he did a lot of things. It makes more sense now. He wasn't always the explainer. Kind of like your old man back in those days. Like, do what I say, damn it. And so I kind of got from that. Like, I explain a lot more, but I think that's kind of the changing of times. You need to give the why and you should give the why. But, like, he really set that for me. He was fair and he was honest and like that. I never thought, like, he ever lied to me. Like, I always felt like, man, like, his harsh truths always came when he was mad. His harsh truths never came when he wasn't mad. He was soft almost. He was like, you're okay, man. You're all right.

Hang in there, babe. Keep working. You're fine. And then, like, when he got mad, like, it was. It was a different vernacular. Like, yeah, he was coming at you.

And then the first time I met him at the final, it was at a Final four, a thousand years ago. He was with Mac Petty, right?

Yeah.

And went up and Mac, you know, Coach Petty introduced me to him. I just remember, like, I walked to him, like, that was not Coach Katie. Like, that wasn't him. I did not just be. He was the nicest guy in the world. Like, yes. He actually, like, asked questions, was engaged. I was a young, dumb coach. I'm like, there's no way. So it's. It's funny hearing you say that, but did you feed off that intensity?

No question. And I actually was kind of that way. I was like him for a while because I didn't know any different. My high school coach was very mild mannered, didn't swear. And so he was opposite of that, you know, as a competitor. And so, like, now, like, I needed to steal from him, not be like him, because I'm not like him. And that's what really my. The growth for me in the last 10 years has been. Is just like, hey, it's. It's all right to be the way you are. Like, you've all. I was almost in theater for the first 10 years. Robbie Hummel would always say it. Like, the guy I played for, he doesn't coach at Purdue anymore, you know, because I'm a lot different than when, you know, I was a lot younger at the time.

And I, like, I just felt like, man, I got to have him prepared and we got to be tough. Like, we got. It's the Big Ten. You gotta be tough. And so, like, now it's like I gotta have them prepared and like, we will be tough. Like, I don't have to go through all the things that went through before to get to where we have an edge and we just.

The way of life, it's just how you do things.

Yes. And it's personnel driven. So it's like, get the right people in the room.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? If you've got the right people in the room that already have that competitive spirit, like, you gotta. You gotta push those buttons and get them going at times, but you don't gotta push it for three hours every single day. You just don't.

You know, I want to segue into something here, but I want to ask you a question. Speaking of Tony Bennett, you stole my thunder, by the way. Thank you. Okay. Because I had a great question lined up. Tony Bennett. Right. But along those lines, okay, two things along those lines. One of the best, like Tony, one of the best human beings, one of the best coaches. I mean, when they lost in the first round, right. To the number 16 seed, and then they come back and then win the national championship, right. You had something similar when you lost a fairly Dickerson. Okay. They were they 15, 14, 16, whatever it was not the way you want the season end. Right. So you had a certain message for the whole off season going into the season, and you operated with a certain.

I didn't want to call a chip on your shoulder, but a certain edge, a certain focus, the ability to recenter. So now you go to the Final Four and you lose the national championship. Just an amazing year. It has to be completely different. How do you do that? Like, how do you find that way to deliver the message, to deliver your approach?

Right.

That's aligned with what you're trying to accomplish. Despite, like your emotion after one season, then your motion after.

Right. Yeah. You know, going from losing that game in the 116. First of all, Tony Bennett gets beat on a crazy play by Furman, I think the same day, but yet he sends me this text at midnight about, it's not who you are, it's what you do. You're a basketball coach, but you're a great person, and you're going to go through, you know, a really tough period here. But it can also be a painful lesson that you need. And that's what I was like, wow. Like, how he. Frankly, yeah, that can be a painful lesson that you need. And I was like, well, that's what we're going to do. We're going to face it. The one thing that we're not going to do is run from a question about it.

And we actually had, through our personality guy, Chad Brown, in profile, we actually had four different meetings after the season, in the summer, in the fall, and then during the season, we actually probably had five, because I think we had one right before the Big Ten season. And then went to. And that's the one thing that we didn't want to do. Like, we didn't want to come off. Like, we're mad at somebody for asking me this question or we've had enough of that question. Like, no, like, there's nothing wrong with. We got beat straight up. We didn't get screwed over by the officials. Like, nothing crazy happened. We got beat simple. And, like, that's on me as a head coach. That's on them.

And if we can own that, I think that gives us the best chance to keep that edge and to be able to make the run that we did and put us in a great position to hopefully, you know, we wanted to win a national championship. We came up a little bit short. So, like, that piece of it was really good for us to kind of like, hey, just. I'm a big believer. And you got to sit in some things. Like, you got to sit in it and like, man, that just like, whenever, like, I have that or whenever I don't like it, but it helps me. It helps me get it going and grind and. And try to get the best out of everybody.

With your staff, you have a couple young guys on the staff. How are those conversations about things like that? Right? Like, you don't want to be overbearing as a mentor towards them, but you also share things, you know, kind of accelerate their learning curve. You shorten up some things. It took us a little bit longer to learn, right?

Yeah. We have two gas that played for me. And then we have two other guys on staff, Sasha Stefanovich and P.J. Thompson, that played for me. Brandon Brantley and I were teammates. Paul Lusk and I have worked at Purdue together twice and worked at Southern Illinois together also. So I have a lot of familiarity With a lot of our guys, our dobo went to Purdue. But the main thing is just trying to explain and given the background of certain things, okay, here's this deal in recruiting. Here's what's going on, and here's the why, and here's what you got to look for. And just, like, constantly, like, kind of talking to them through our GA's work, our guys out a lot. So, like, you know, kind of talking to them about, like, hey, here's what you need to work on.

Because when you get down to it, like, the two things that only really matter, especially after you play one year of college basketball, is what gets me on the court and what gets me off the court. Just like anything else matter in your mind. Because a lot of things matter. When I was 17 and I chose the school, I get a kick out of some kid going, yeah, I really like your campus. Like, who cares? Like. Like you like. Like flower beds, like you. Like the brick buildings. Like, who cares? And so, like, everything matters. Like, the Nikes matter and, like, this matter. And then after you play one year and you don't get what you want, none of it matters. You're like, I'm gonna get a good education no matter what, but my happiness is going to be driven through basketball.

So when I recruit those guys, I said, hey, your happiness is through you playing and you winning, period. Period. So if you're not going to play for us right away because people will use against us that we redshirt.

Yeah.

He said, we'll go somewhere else and not play. And I said, then transfer after that year. Now where do you sit? You think the schools you're going to have better schools then, like, worse schools? I don't know. You might. I go, but you're looking at your happiness, but yet you're trying to dodge adversity. Because I got two guys in this position. I just lost out on a kid, and it was like, I just felt I had a better opportunity there. I'm like, yeah, no, they're not as good as we are. Kidding. I go, but why can't I go? Why can't you come in here and beat these guys out at our place? Yeah, and they'll. Look, you think I can beat them out? I go, yeah, I think you can beat them out. I go, but I think they can beat you out, too.

So you're like, I'm not trying to set this up where I think you're my guy. I go, I'm going to give you everything in your power to be successful. But I'm also going to give the other 12 guys the same thing. I go, like, I'm for everybody. Like, so understand that, like, they're painting a picture of you get to play more, but you got a better chance to develop into a pro here. You got a better chance to win a championship here. You got a better chance to go the NCAA tournament for four years here. And then that's not important to you because we didn't used to be that school and now we're that school. And then sometimes those guys will look at us like, well, you know, they start to, hey, guys, that's not our guy right there.

And even though we recruited him, we offered him, we got there. You really don't know until, you know, the rubber meets the road.

Our past do not define us. Right. But they do shape us.

Yes.

Rumor has it in your hometown, the most epic pickup games on Friday nights were in your backyard. Is that true?

We had some good ones.

I heard you had some battles. So.

They were more battles for me when I was younger because the older players were there. The older players weren't that good. But when they're three, four, five years older than you physically, those are always challenges. So, like we had a 50 foot slab of concrete and then we had railroad ties that got put together that made like a tee with floodlights on them.

So cool.

And then we had some pine trees to the side of it that could knock the wind down.

It's like a hoops field of dreams.

Kind of. Kind of. Our front yard was our football field and our wiffle ball field and our backyard was that. So.

Okay, next question. World Series, Cubs, Orioles. Who are you rooting for?

The Cubs. I'm not really an Orioles fan. My favorite player is Eddie Murray.

Okay.

So like, I always would say I'm an Orioles Eddie before Cal Ripken. Yeah. Tattooed one off the scoreboard when I was like nine years old when they played the Pirates in 79. So he.

So were you ever really Orioles fan or just an Eddie Murray fan?

I probably just an Eddie Murray fan. Like, I was like, I was that way. Like, like Dr. J is my favorite player. So I always said I was a Sixers fan. But then like once he left, I liked Charles Barkley. But then once he left, like, I just.

Yeah, I haven't been. So I'm not a whole lot there.

So I'm not. But no, I'm a die hard Cubs fan. Like, that's awesome. Yeah.

You talked about Tony Bennett. Right?

Right.

And folks like you and Tony. Coach K, Coach. You'll know when it's time. Like, you know when it's time. It's not time for you yet, but there's something about you that I sense. You focus more on what gets you up in the morning than you do what keeps you up at night. What is it that still drives you with all the success you have, is the players. It's the relationships.

Well, we have five freshmen that didn't go through. We went through last year. They deserve to go through it. You know, it was, like, one of the things when went to the Final Four. Like, you don't think about what you're going to do and how you're going to handle things. You're just going to be, you know, it's more of a relief than it is anything. And it shouldn't be a relief. It should be joy. And there's joy there, but it's still a relief. Like, you carry a pretty strong burden. And then I have to go over and do a radio show with Robbie Hummel right away while I'm on the court, and he's already crying. So, like, he's happy for us, and I'm guilty that I couldn't get him there. And so, like, that's the point. Like, you just want it.

Like, I watch these guys sacrifice. Like, I watch them come to morning walkthroughs. I watch them take shit in social media. Like, I watch them go to class. And there's a lot of people that do that. I understand that. But that sacrifice, whatever. But, like, now I want to pay him back, and I want us to be able to win a Big Ten championship with them, go to a Final Four with them, hopefully win a national championship someday and be a part of that and do it for your fans. And so that's what kind of, like, drives me. I'm better at piecing things together. I love piecing it together.

I love, like, figuring out, like, this is going to work with this, and this is going to work with this, and this guy here is a little shorthanded in these areas, but, man, he's got a competitive spirit and he's tough, and he's about winning and he's going to help us. Like, I like taking somebody that nobody else wants, and they end up being players, and because you see something in them, but now you got to get it from them. You got to get it.

Matt, thank you. I cannot thank you enough.

Oh, no problem.

I appreciate your time. My man. Good luck. I'll see you somewhere. Along the way. I wish I could see you out in Omaha, but good luck and we'll talk soon.

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